FS cap badges with "tongues"

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

Thank you. As I have never head of this head dress before or seen one, I am none the wiser.

Marc

Can anyone show a photo of one of these caps please, as I to have no idea what one is.

regards

[Old Smelly]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

I was always given to believe that this style of fitting was edwardian for the officers forage cap. The tab went into a small slot the lug then secured the badge in place.

Steve M

That's what I was told too, I have a RAMC with these fittings.
Lee

[41st]

I'm with Lee. I have a Welsh Reg't example & a similar to the RWF but the bottom fixing is a blade.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[Rockape]

I agree with the date for this type of fixing as 1902. I have badges to The Earl of Chester's Imperial Yeomanry (1st pattern) that have the single loop and tongue and these were fitted to the FSC when in Drill Order.

[KLR]

Thanks everyone - I'm sorry that I haven't had time to get back to this until now.
Yes, I had hoped to ascertain exactly what type of headgear this badge fitting was designed to be worn on.
I had also thought that this was an early (1894-1904 - ie dates of FSC) phenomenon which is why I was surprised to find a 1926 Pattern badge with these fittings. But then it could have been worn on the reintroduced FSC in the ?1930 - does anyone know the exact date when they were reintroduced ? I believe khaki and then coloured ones.Here is a coloured King's cap with a 1926 Patt badge - but it unfortunately doesn't show where the badge was worn.
Surely the FSC is what is the "folded peak" type ??? though I thought that badges were worn on the side of them.
The other point is that these fittings are much more scarce than blades or loops so I had assumed that this type wasn't worn for long.
J

[Charlie 585]

An interesting thread concerning a fixing that I had regarded as possibly a transitional method from the time of the change from loops to blades. This was due to previously seeing the fixing on a Royal Engineers Edwardian Cap Badge.

The badge in the image below appears to dispel this though given that it has a HM date of 1916.

This badge being an RB Officer’s example would not have been worn on the FSC so it is likely that it was designed to be worn of the forage / SD cap.

Due to Officers badges being private purchase, it is feasible that badges were offered with a choice of fixing. If so it might have been an unpopular choice that was only taken up occasionally hence the scarcity of examples now in circulation.

The badge shown here may well be the one attached to the cap in the image of the officer that owned it, note that the chin strap appears to be behind the badge in the image, could this be due to the fixing method of the badge?

More information on this officer can be found in the link below, scroll R to L on the photo once the page opens to find the badge.

http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/en/...79#prettyPhoto

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

[KLR]

Thanks FGC65. I agree that it is likely that officers were offered different fixings - I know of one particular officer's HM silver badge that has been found with loops, blades and a slider. The latter being fitted into a socket that was sewn on to the front of the cap so as to avoid making holes in the cap.
There was mention of this fitting possibly being held by the chin strap which I now see from your photograph to be a possibility. I can only assume an 'unpopularity' because it might not have been as secure as other fixings ? - though a split pin through the loop ought to have held it in.

I'm also intrigued by your mention of a change from loops to blades. Notwithstanding the example mentioned above, blades are comparatively rare on S&G badges. They are much more common on OSD bronze badges. I understood that you don't really need to take them off a cap once fixed on whereas S&G badges need to be taken off every now and again to polish them. Certainly all my 1896 Patt S&G KLR badges have loops, one has three ! My OSDs of the same pattern have either loops or blades. Incidentally blades and loops are found both EW and NS.

[Charlie 585]

Thanks KLR.

My mention of a change from loops to blades does appear to be somewhat misleading. I was trying to emphasise the time period, covering the change from loops to sliders for ORs and the introduction of blades predominantly but not confined to OSD badges. I would imagine that all methods and combinations of fixing were trialled before being produced in numbers.

Still an intriguing thread / subject, given the possibility of the fixing being produced for use on a specific design of cap which seemingly never became a universal pattern, if it was not originally intended for the FSC.

Regards.

[41st]

Reading the above reminds me that I have seen hall marked lancers badge for 1919 with the fixings being discussed here.
For the life of me I cannot recall which unit it was.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by 41st

Reading the above reminds me that I have seen hall marked lancers badge for 1919 with the fixings being discussed here.
For the life of me I cannot recall which unit it was.

Its one of mine and its a HMS 17th Lancers. The later one (1934 'ish) I have has lugs, but the 1918/19 one has the bottom tab - or whatever else it is being called.
davis

[KLR]

FC65 - the change from loops to sliders on ORs badges can be dated specifically to a WO order of 5th March 1903 - on 28th March 1906 they were ordered to be 'shortened' though we don't know by how much ! However the FSC continued to be worn by troops in India, so looped badges continued there. It was also worn by Vol and TF Bns as well as 'new' hastily raised outfits training in the UK after the outbreak of the 1st WW (I have a photograph of the 16th Bn KLR wearing it).


I have heard the term 'tongue' being used to describe this type of fitting, so I'll continue to use that until anyone knows of any 'official' description.
All examples of this fitting discussed so far are all for regular units


With the dates being cited for various HMS badges of this type it is clear that it was not intended for the FSC which was declared obsolete in 1903 (though as noted above it was worn in India beyond that date). So I guess it's a forage cap 'minority' fitting !?
Well, we're getting somewhere !

[Mike_2817]

I collect mainly to the Ordnance Services and find as many 1918 Pattern RAOC OR Badges with Loops as I do with Sliders. Officers G&S with Lugs & Bronzed with Blades. I have never come across this style of Lug & Tongue fitting on any Ordnance Badge. But I do have a Gilt AOD badge with Blades.

The extends to (R)ASC as well as I am aware

[wright241]

Originally Posted by KLR

FC65 - the change from loops to sliders on ORs badges can be dated specifically to a WO order of 5th March 1903 - on 28th March 1906 they were ordered to be 'shortened' though we don't know by how much ! However the FSC continued to be worn by troops in India, so looped badges continued there. It was also worn by Vol and TF Bns as well as 'new' hastily raised outfits training in the UK after the outbreak of the 1st WW (I have a photograph of the 16th Bn KLR wearing it).


I have heard the term 'tongue' being used to describe this type of fitting, so I'll continue to use that until anyone knows of any 'official' description.
All examples of this fitting discussed so far are all for regular units


With the dates being cited for various HMS badges of this type it is clear that it was not intended for the FSC which was declared obsolete in 1903 (though as noted above it was worn in India beyond that date). So I guess it's a forage cap 'minority' fitting !?
Well, we're getting somewhere !

We are... Tongue sounds good to me. I thought I had three of this type somewhere, but can only find one other at the moment. Its an officers KC 7QOH. Apart from these, that's it. Not sure about the period of use etc, but the 7QOC one is maker marked to JRGAUNT LONDON.
David

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by KLR

I have heard the term 'tongue' being used to describe this type of fitting, so I'll continue to use that until anyone knows of any 'official' description.
All

I don't think that 'Dress Regulations for Officers' really went into types of fixings in any great deal?

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by KLR

FC65 - the change from loops to sliders on ORs badges can be dated specifically to a WO order of 5th March 1903 - on 28th March 1906 they were ordered to be 'shortened' though we don't know by how much ! However the FSC continued to be worn by troops in India, so looped badges continued there. It was also worn by Vol and TF Bns as well as 'new' hastily raised outfits training in the UK after the outbreak of the 1st WW (I have a photograph of the 16th Bn KLR wearing it).


I have heard the term 'tongue' being used to describe this type of fitting, so I'll continue to use that until anyone knows of any 'official' description.
All examples of this fitting discussed so far are all for regular units


With the dates being cited for various HMS badges of this type it is clear that it was not intended for the FSC which was declared obsolete in 1903 (though as noted above it was worn in India beyond that date). So I guess it's a forage cap 'minority' fitting !?
Well, we're getting somewhere !

Julian,
the Rules and Regs would apply to OR's badges but for "Officers" it would has been far less stringent, if in place "At All"? Interestingly the majority of badges referred to and ones I've encountered almost all appear to be "Officer" items, with I think the only "OR's" example yet to be offered up being the Cheshire IY?

Andy