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  #46  
Old 24-12-18, 10:44 PM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Examples of "known" original riveted and the in question "fused" badge.

Here are examples and comparisons of the "known" originals and the "in question" fused examples.

First photo as seen previously on this thread is the "in question" fused type, so is the second, third, fourth, fifth photo. The last two being the same badge. The sixth photo is a Scully side view. The next is the fused badge showing the type of base metal. An original riveted version from Lt. Richer, the fused example I have beside a Scully.

The Group photos show 1. the end of the scroll of the "in question" fused badge with identical defect in the scroll as the 2. "known" riveted example which also appears more slightly on the 3. die cut bi-metal "so called re-strike stamped " and missing from the 4. "molded from a badge" example.

The second group photo shows the 1. die cut bi metal "so-called restrike stamped" badge beside the 2. "molded" white metal type and 3. "in question" fused type beside 4. Original Wm. Scully Montreal example.

Anyway when one compares details etc. the original "riveted" examples have no difference in detail than the "fused" types. There is however some differences between the "restrike stamped" and "molded" examples.

It is also interesting to note that there are also differences in the details of the "riveted" known originals. This suggests at least the possibility of two makers. Some are also made with the silver scroll covering the entire area behind the scroll while others, like the "fused" type only have the silver overlay cover the front of the scroll.

Ken
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1st_Can_Para_Officers_FAKE.jpg (11.9 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg 1st_Can_Para_Officers_Back_FAKE.jpg (17.4 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg front1.jpg (45.5 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1160.jpg (59.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1165.jpg (22.0 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1958.jpg (33.3 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1963.jpg (51.4 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1970.jpg (57.8 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1983.jpg (72.2 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1984.jpg (55.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1944.jpg (78.9 KB, 15 views)

Last edited by Force136; 24-12-18 at 10:48 PM. Reason: reference photos
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  #47  
Old 24-12-18, 10:54 PM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Officers Canadian Parachute Corps "fused" NOT "riveted" unmarked examples

Photos of the badge being worn from May 1944. It is possible the badge became available in the UK in later 1943. These are the "riveted" or possibly
"fused" types.

Also the backs of some badges showing types of flat metal and what looks like the similar metal on these badges being used with the appearance of veins or crackel lines on the suface. I have seen others with the identical type of metal and will try to find those as well.

Ken
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCN1979.jpg (27.7 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1980.jpg (36.1 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN1982.jpg (40.4 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg s-l500 (2).jpg (26.0 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg s-l500.jpg (21.7 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg (72.6 KB, 22 views)
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  #48  
Old 24-12-18, 11:47 PM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Officers Canadian Parachute Corps "fused" NOT "riveted" unmarked examples

It is a very real possibility that the company/companies that made the riveted and possibly fused badges during the war also made the higher quality stamped versions. But when? It is obvious that the "fused" badge and the quality stamped versions were made from the original die and NOT molded like some. Were the fused types made late in the war or possibly slightly post war? Officers at the parachute school continued to wear the Canadian Parachute Corps badges until the formation of the Mobile Striking Force in the 1948 period. They wore them there in an instructor capacity probably as late as the early 1950's. So there are so many possibilities. Some insignia at Rivers did continue to come from the UK. This is evident in the acquisition of bullion jump wings for the later patrol dress.

Yes I know I now have an example of this badge. In fact I was going to sell it as I was certain it was good. However I decided to hang on to it and see what additional evidence I could dig up. That evidence only has me thinking that it is indeed original. Even if it was made in the 1960's using the actual dies, it could still be an original badge. This especially if the company that made them during the war made post war examples with their dies. It is therefore NOT a repro, a copy or a fake.

So the only thing missing from this examination is a wartime OR post war provenance. Was it made by a British badge firm during the war? was it re-made by a firm after the war or did that firm sell it's original dies and some private person make them?

So that is where it will remain until someone finds one with some prov in the hands of a vet or family or until someone comes forward with evidence suggesting that Joe Blow down at the Pub is making them in his basement with the original equipment.

Ken
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  #49  
Old 25-12-18, 06:44 PM
PD Harrison PD Harrison is offline
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Default Lt Col G.F. Eadie Beret and Embroidered Badge

Post Moved

Last edited by PD Harrison; 27-12-18 at 12:03 AM.
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  #50  
Old 04-01-19, 03:26 AM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default More evidence

This is a photo of Major Hilborn (right) of the 1st CPB - Note how the badge he is wearing droops forward. If you follow the line where the material of the beret
bends with where the lugs of the badge are, it looks like the lugs are in the lower (fused) and not higher (riveted) position. The details of the tops of the feathering also resemble that of the fused badge.

Ken
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File Type: jpg DSCN2719.jpg (51.9 KB, 46 views)

Last edited by Force136; 04-01-19 at 03:27 AM. Reason: id of person in image
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  #51  
Old 04-02-19, 04:32 PM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Another Photo

This is a photo of another officer at the end of the war wearing the same unmarked type. Again, NOTE the shadow in the beret and how the badge is attached to it. You can clearly see that the lugs must be very low down on the badge to be attached with such a shadow / fold of the material behind the badge. When you follow the fold of the beret material it suggests that the lug is soldered to the back of the badge below the lower row of feathering in the wing. The only badges with lugs that low are the fused badges in question.
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File Type: jpg 1CPB Officers Badge.jpg (92.4 KB, 37 views)
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  #52  
Old 04-02-19, 05:36 PM
ddaydodger ddaydodger is offline
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Default

Officer? Are you sure? No tie, closed collar, more typical of an OR. And there looks like no pips or crowns. Is there a name to this picture?
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  #53  
Old 06-02-19, 02:08 AM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default Officer?

No, you are correct, it is likely an OR with an Officers cap badge while walking out. I have an Officers badge from a Private in the Battalion so it makes sense.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Ken


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Originally Posted by ddaydodger View Post
Officer? Are you sure? No tie, closed collar, more typical of an OR. And there looks like no pips or crowns. Is there a name to this picture?
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  #54  
Old 17-02-19, 11:01 PM
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cw2311 cw2311 is offline
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Default

Here is the link to Pte Moneypenny who purchased an officer's cap badge for his walking-out dress. I have encountered a couple of these situations now.

http://1stcanparamuseum.com/soldiers...mes-moneypenny
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Iím always interested in purchasing 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion memorabilia.
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  #55  
Old 22-02-19, 02:55 AM
Force136 Force136 is offline
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Default MORE EVIDENCE

Thanks for that very cool.

I also just realized that in my book Into the Maelstrom
I included the quote from the 1st Canadian Parachute Training Battalion WD Part II Orders dated 1 May 1945 which states ,"...Personnel attached will continue to wear shoulder titles of the Corps they are attached, ie RCOC, RCAPC, etc. The only exception to this will be that officers of the S.S. Bn. may wear crossed arrows as a hat badge until 1CPBn officers cap badges become available." This then clarifies that in May 1945 Officers from the 1st Canadian Special Service Battalion / 1st Special Service Force transferred to the Training Battalion did not have access to officers badges and a new supply had to be ordered. This would also explain why there are photos of ex 1st SSF in Britain and Germany at that time only wearing the maroon beret with no badge. The only known officers badge in the hands of an ex. 1st SSF officer is that of Lt. Col. Ralph Becket and his was acquired before this date. Therefore we do not know what these badges expected in May 1945 looked like. THIS IS IMPORTANT EVIDENCE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cw2311 View Post
Here is the link to Pte Moneypenny who purchased an officer's cap badge for his walking-out dress. I have encountered a couple of these situations now.

http://1stcanparamuseum.com/soldiers...mes-moneypenny
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