Pips and Crowns re-instated

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by MCG

I apologies for taking this in a direction not desired by the theme of the site. I saw a number of posts promoting the idea and suggesting that the current soldiers by-large are happy to see this. I only sought to balance that discussion with my view and the predominant view that I am hearing from current soldiers, from NCO up to Col. I understand now that we will stay away from arguing the merits for or against the decision.

I would like to come back to my question that does fit in the theme of dress and badges themselves. That is, what will happen to the CANADA label currently on Canadian uniforms when the new rank displaces corps/regt tabs from the epaulettes and the new cloth corps/regt tabs move to the shoulder of the sleeve? Will the CANADA badge become the new collectors' item?

On the DEU the CANADA title is below the epaulette. It shouldn't change. The officers' rank will fit quite nicely between the unit title and the button.
There is plenty of room on the shirt slip ons for the rank to be above the unit designator.
On CADPAT the rank should be on the slip on above the unit designator.
I have seen plenty of examples of the combat slip ons with the unit designator and officer rank as worn prior to unification.
I really don't see anything to worry about.

Phil

[shootemup]

I don't mean to be obtuse, but pardon me as I don't understand what you are talking about here:

[QUOTE]I would like to come back to my question that does fit in the theme of dress and badges themselves. That is, what will happen to the CANADA label currently on Canadian uniforms when the new rank displaces corps/regt tabs from the epaulettes and the new cloth corps/regt tabs move to the shoulder of the sleeve? Will the CANADA badge become the new collectors' item?[QUOTE]

How would anything change at all? The stripes will be replaced by stars/crown on the slipons, on both combat and dress versions, and the unit title will stay where it is. On the DEU and mess kit, the stars/crown will attach directly to the epaulet("shoulder strap") and the metal titles will stay where they are.

Few CA personnel wear CANADA anyways, as they wear branch/reg't/unit titles in longstanding tradition even on the current uniform and this has not lead to them not being identified as Canadian. MGC, Are you sure you aren't airforce (you did mention Cold Lake) or navy? They all wear CANADA titles...in the Army only new recruits, generals, and "lost" or "branchless" folks wear CANADA.

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by shootemup

Few CA personnel wear CANADA anyways, as they wear branch/reg't/unit titles in longstanding tradition even on the current uniform and this has not lead to them not being identified as Canadian. MGC, Are you sure you aren't airforce (you did mention Cold Lake) or navy? They all wear CANADA titles...in the Army only new recruits, generals, and "lost" or "branchless" folks wear CANADA.

The cloth CANADA flash is worn by all Canadian Army personnel on the shoulder of the DEU tunic below the epaulette.

Phil

[shootemup]

But that one is on the sleeve, not effected by the rank...?

Maybe I've got it now: the OP thinks the rank will displace the metal DEU titles, which will revert to the cloth titles, which will displace the "Canada" title, like the PPCLI have just done?


My head hurts now...

[Phillip Herring]

Originally Posted by shootemup

But that one is on the sleeve, not effected by the rank...?

Maybe I've got it now: the OP thinks the rank will displace the metal DEU titles, which will revert to the cloth titles, which will displace the "Canada" title, like the PPCLI have just done?


My head hurts now...

My understanding is that the PPCLI are wearing the cloth flash on their DEU only for the duration of their centennial year.
Are there any badge collectors on here who recall flashes on battledress and metal titles on service dress/patrols?
I don't understand the confusion and self induced distress over all this.

Phil

[Bill A]

I think it is clarification that was being sought.
The issue of new rank insignia is one topic. My understanding is that the metal titles are remaining on the DEU, and as Phil indicates the PPCLI cloth title is a special dress distinction marking their centennary.
The nationality title, the various manifestations of "CANADA", in metal, embroidered and printed, have a long history, dating to at least the Boer War. It has been consistent policy of the Canadian army since at least 1940, that Canadian troops be clearly identified as Canadian. That has not changed under any of the political masters. There is a book in the history of the nationality title...
And Phil, to date myself, I remember the metal titles on TW's, blue patrols, and service dress. The embroidered titles were on the battledress and the OD 7 cotton armlets.

[MCG]

The DND backgrounder that announced the rank change also mentioned cloth shoulder titles. I interpreted this to mean more corps or regts would be permanently following the PPCLI's centennial swap of the CANADA flash for a regimental flash. Cloth shoulder titles are not worn on any other uniform, so why mention them nobody new is putting them onto DEUs?

[servicepub]

From the backgrounder;
"Following the restoration of the Canadian Army’s corps in April 2013, corps metal and cloth shoulder titles will be produced."
I read this as being the cloth 'tabs' worn on the slip-ons and not shoulder titles in the Second World War sense.
Clive

[MCG]

I see it is announced that the Canadian Army will indeed adopt the British Star of the Order of the Bath.

[Bill A]

Having waded through thousands of pages of documents researching Canadian cloth insignia, one thing is clear: policy is never clear, and is open to interpretation by those charged with implementing said policy. Clive's read on "cloth shoulder titles" fits with the current orders of dress. The abbreviated pattern titles are worn on some CF orders of dress. It would be redundant to have both metal and cloth titles for the DEU.

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by MCG

I see it is announced that the Canadian Army will indeed adopt the British Star of the Order of the Bath.

Can you provide the source of the announcement?

[MCG]

Originally Posted by servicepub

Can you provide the source of the announcement?

I am told the announcement was on an internal Army email from the national staff.

[MCG]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Having waded through thousands of pages of documents researching Canadian cloth insignia, one thing is clear: policy is never clear, and is open to interpretation by those charged with implementing said policy. Clive's read on "cloth shoulder titles" fits with the current orders of dress. The abbreviated pattern titles are worn on some CF orders of dress. It would be redundant to have both metal and cloth titles for the DEU.

The only shoulder slip-ons are for DEU shirts, and corps/regimental titles on these are NPF or member purchased. The combat slip-on is centre of the chest and about to be replaced with a Velcro rank insignia that will also be on the chest. It is difficult, therefore, to imagine why the statement would suggest either of those types of tabs would be produced by DND.

[Bill A]

Clarification, why wouldn't the unit identity in the current tablet form still be worn on the rank slip-on on the chest? This was the format used previously on TW cadpat?

[MCG]

Because with the new combat uniform, there will be no slip-on.