Guards Machine gun badge.

[Alan O]

I recently bought an ebay lot of badges from the US as it contained a Q/C a/a Loyal Regiment cap badge. Included in the lot were a couple of restrikes including this Machine Gun Guards. The later all brass version is faked as well, but badly made. Knocked out for £6.50 by a cab driver in wales.

These are also widely faked and if there was ever a badge which is indistinguishable from the real thing then this is it. It must be a candidate for an original die being used. The copies come on lugs and sliders but I think the originals were on sliders.

This one is very deep, perfectly struck but has not been artifically aged so it is obvious that it is not 90 years old. It also has the Gaunt B'ham mark so I suspect that it was one of the scarce WW1 badges that Gaunt knocked out in the 1970s as gap fillers. If ever you needed an example of a Gaunt Bham slider on a repro badge then this is it. I would dearly like to know if the Gaunt stamp was used by the company in the 50s and 60s but I suspect that it was not. While I only have a couple of yeomanry bades in brass with the Bham stamp, I do have a number of a/a badges dating from units in existance circa 1960 onwards and I am not sure whether these were made for the commercial market or not. Until a couple of years ago there was an old elecrical and household shop in Bulford shopping row which also sold a/a cap badges. The old chap (he was well over 70) had boxes of now long obselete badges in stock including Rhants, ACC, RCT but also some rare ones including the Royal Scots Greys.

Gaunt were certainly supplying the Army in the 1960s and 70s with badges but there remains an uncertainty about what they reproduced in the 70s for the collectors market in a/a.
All comments welcome

Alan

[tynesideirish]

Here's some GMG images to compliment the one shown.
Other Ranks.
Officers front & rear.
Sweetheart front & rear.

[natal01]

I have been going through an old South African badge collection and came across this Guards Machine Gun Regiment badge in brass and enamel. According to Kipling and King this badge was in white metal for ORs and silver and enamel for officers. So what is this ? Can anyone help ?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by natal01

I have been going through an old South African badge collection and came across this Guards Machine Gun Regiment badge in brass and enamel. According to Kipling and King this badge was in white metal for ORs and silver and enamel for officers. So what is this ? Can anyone help ?

I cannot be sure but the most likely scenario is that this is a badge worn by Full Serjeants or Warrant Officers. It has long been the practice in the Foot Guards and Scottish Line that SNCOs/WOs wear a different badge to both officers and men. Although the Guards Machine Gun Battalion (not 'Regiment', which came later from a merger with Household Cavalry machine gunners and had a different badge) had but a short life, I would be very surprised if they did not follow this practice.

I would like to agree with Toby on this one. I have had (from memory) 4 of these through my hands in 40 years and on each occasion, they were included in Guards collections which had other ranks' through to officers' patterns and on all 4 occasions were identified as senior nco's. Without doubt, all 4 collections were genuine. It is a nice badge and a scarce one, well worthy of a place in any Foot Guards collection. Regards. David

[Jibba Jabba]

Frankly I think the badge is a bad one. A typical bowed slider as found on fakes, polish pushed into the recesses on the reverse of the badge with no sign of any damage to enamel on the front from cleaning e.g discolouration from polish and nearly all guards enamal badges are being faked. Sorry Dave I`m not with you on this one, I`d put this badge with the fake guards cadet battalion.

JJ - How many fake examples of this badge have you come across ? May I open that question to others, also. Regards. David

[Jibba Jabba]

From this particular die hundreds if not thousands of fakes struck in the standard white metal and brass. Just because I have yet to see one with this primitive enamel finish doesnt mean it isnt faked. The all brass is faked by a cab driver in Wales.

The adding of enamel to fakes is now common place and has been for 10 years. Not just the cadets badge but also to marine helmet plates etc.

Dave I`m not doubting the examples you have handled, I'm doubting what is shown here. Please note I have actually bothered to post the reasons why I dont like it.

My apologies again Dave.

[Alan O]

If I was given that badge without the enamleeing then I would say restrike for lots of reasons. The presence of the enamelling does not chance my opinion of it. An all brass variation that has eluded the book writers and is not in the Guards Museum is in all likelehood a fantasy badge.

Alan

I respect everything that has been said. I know the rubbish Royal Marines helmet plates with third rate enamelling - and the Guards so called nco's and officers' badges. However, I have not come across a restrike nco's cap badge of the Guards Machine Gun Regiment. So far, no-one has indicated that they have - that was my question. In my view (and, as a mere mortal, it may be wrong) I see the enamelling on this particular badge as much better quality - both the red and cobalt blue are a deeper, more glazed colour - akin to the originals I have seen. Personally, I am not prepared to write this one off at this time. So, can anyone bear witness to restrike nco's cap badges of this nature ? Needless to say, if someone were to come along with a War Department edict stating that the badge should only have loops, then I will be on the road to persuasion. You know, I am beginning to think that this Forum suffers from 'Reds under the bed' syndrome = everything is suspect unless it carries a 22 carat hallmark. Just my thoughts - probably I'm getting too old for this 'game'. Regards. David

[Alan O]

Well as the WD ordered the making of all brass abdges from 1916, it would be a bit odd to then design an enamel one in the same year! If it was private purchase (like the Officers) then the slider would not be normal. As for the brass construction when the rest of the regts badges were in w/m or silver, it just weird.

It is all probability and in all probability some one has made these using brass restrikes and an enamelling kit.

Alan

[dragonz18]

natal01,
I am informed by a collector/jeweller friend ,that there is a quick test you can make.Origional enameling from this period was 'vitrious enamel',like glass & very hard. This was usually only applied to things like silver ,gilding metal & bronze,but was notoriously hard to apply to normal brass.Modern enamels are a 'resin enamel', used from about the 70's onwards & will 'take' on virtually all metals. The test is....try to scratch the surface with a sharp pin. If it scratches reasonably easily ,then it's modern in its application, if not & leaves no scratch.or dent(from the point), then it is likely real.Or a modern use with the real stuff at least here! But this requires an expert's hand to apply correctly.
Am also informed that when origionally done ,enamel was applied,fired ,then buffed back before re-firing,this tending to level the top of the letters a little.
Hope this helps?
Let us know the results, please.
Cheers !
Steve
PS: The slider is attached a little high also,generally there should be more showing at the bottom. This is just my own opinion here.

[Mike]

The silder position is interesting, I saw problems sticking it across that deep furrow produced from the reverse of the 'bullet'


found this 100% thoroughly trustworthy genuine ebay seller with one
- slider's stuck in the round recess.

This badge is very "domed" compared to the resrikes I have had (will photograph it sideways next to a restrike before it's gone, and add it to some page on this site). It actually has some faint letters scratched into the slider but I cant make it out.

As an aside, just had a closer look at a KC notts and derby I have with "I LOVE YOU MAY" scratched into the slider, how romantic is that, must have given it to his girl.

[dragonz18]

Mike,
I am sure your badge is origional. But then again I would have to say this, as mine is identical in all respects, front & back.Though the crown on mine is a little more worn,with polishing. I think that the 'blank' spots on the back,& on mine also, are a sign of the back die becoming worn out here ?
As to NCO's versions of this badge, I think that the occasionl hand voided versions that are encountered,would possibly fit into this criteria? Thoughts here??
Similar items, like this ,are also seen on A&S Hlndr's badges,and a few others also.
Cheers !
Steve

[Mike]

glad you said that. Yes wear or uneven pressure during the striking, as the left of the reverse is generally better than the right. Polishing on mine has unfortunately taken away the ridges around the edge of the monogram letters but the guards are notorious polishers I believe.

so what was the consensus on the metal of the opening post badge? were they ever struck in gilding metal? I can't recall hearing of them but I've had a sheltered life.