Royal Marine Belt Plate

[billy]

O/K he beat me to posting the reply

[Neibelungen]

It's Ok.. I had probably phrased it wrongly without clearly explaining myself and the post in the best manner. So no offence taken from anybody and no apologies required at all.

I'd only noticed the sale today as it came up in a google image seach, dating the ebay sale back to last summer.

Any skilled metalworker/jeweller could reproduce off an original in such a way that it can be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a genuine and a reproduction. Even shrinkage from casting can be eliminated entirely with a little effort and skill.
These days you can digitally scan, 3d print and enlarge with remarkable resolution. You could then create copper electrodes and spark erode a die with near 100% accuracy and die stamp a practically indistinguishable badge.

I actually manufacture accoutrements for the army and military/ceremonial tailors as well as supplying missing parts for restoration purposes to militaria dealers and conservators/restorers etc.
However I don't come on here to sell my services and don't actually collect badges any more. One of the resons for being quite for the last couple of years was moving workshop after a major fire in an adjacent building and being busy with other projects. I've been a constant reader hear though and always appreciated the dedication and detail involved with badge collection and identification/history.

[Paul Spellman]

Great sales pitch.
You obviously hold your work in high regard. I’m sorry but I won’t be recommending you.
Whilst your busy destroying the integrity and history of the Armed Forces you may consider the damage you contribute toward the continuation of this hobby including the devaluation which is certainly bound to come

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Great sales pitch.
You obviously hold your work in high regard. I’m sorry but I won’t be recommending you.
Whilst your busy destroying the integrity and history of the Armed Forces you may consider the damage you contribute toward the continuation of this hobby including the devaluation which is certainly bound to come

Ditto.
Andy

[Neibelungen]

Actually I only posted up the fact that somebody had sold a reproduction as an original and brought it to the attention of the collectors here in the off chance that anybody may know the person who bought it, or if it reappears on the market labelled as an original again so people would be aware.

I don't want any work and only highlighted that my background is knowing how things are made and the manufacturing processes involved.

You can ask Mac, who collects lancer caps how much I've helped him identify reproduction plates and the signs to watch out for.

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by Neibelungen

Actually I only posted up the fact that somebody had sold a reproduction as an original and brought it to the attention of the collectors here in the off chance that anybody may know the person who bought it, or if it reappears on the market labelled as an original again so people would be aware.

I don't want any work and only highlighted that my background is knowing how things are made and the manufacturing processes involved.

You can ask Mac, who collects lancer caps how much I've helped him identify reproduction plates and the signs to watch out for.

Be it intentionally or unintentionally, what you are doing could be construed as providing the means for the fraudsters to commit the crimes they do. We are all aware that these a---holes have no moral scruples whatsoever and are only out for financial gain so they must think the world of reproducers like you.

[Neibelungen]

Whilst your busy destroying the integrity and history of the Armed Forces you may consider the damage you contribute toward the continuation of this hobby including the devaluation which is certainly bound to come

As an aside to destroying the history and integrity of the Armed Forces.

I actually manufactured the lance caps for Firmin's for the Band of the Royal Lancers (illustrated in the chapter in Rowe's book on Lancer Caps ) and am currently in the process of manufacturing pouch-boxes and shoulder belts for one of the Yeomanry Regiments. Hardly destroying thier history or integrity ?

It's often small scale specialist manufacturers like me that retain the skills required for traditional ceremonial dress uniforms rather than it going overseas to India or China where they get simplified and dulled down to a pale shadow of their original form.

PS.. I don't think you'll find in over 200 posts I've tried to sell a single thing or invited people to use me.

I know it's gone a little off topic and understand the scorn that is directed at reproduction work, though it's a useful topic to discuss in itself.

Re-enactment is a hobby, like collecting, and there's a certain pride taken in getting uniforms, equipment, badges and details accurate and 'authentic' . Even in film, there's a lot of criticism thrown at them when they don't get details 'correct' or if the badges are 'wrong' for the date. And it appears criticism when they do get it 'right'.
It's small companies who often make these things and some of us try to preserve the integrety of originals by trying to clearly mark or differentiate them as reproductions.
It's unscroupulous sellers faking things up for gain who are the real problem.


Perhaps, you might also ask, why 'devalue' was such a significant phrase used when refering to badge collecting?

[Phil2M]

Then again, there are people on this forum who complain when films and TV portray inaccurate insignia. If people didn't reproduce these rarer items for theatrical use, they would ALL be totally inaccurate.

I think the general response to this thread, to this manufacturer, has been unreasonable. He tries to point out where his wares are being abused and he gets attacked.

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by Phil2M

Then again, there are people on this forum who complain when films and TV portray inaccurate insignia. If people didn't reproduce these rarer items for theatrical use, they would ALL be totally inaccurate.

I think the general response to this thread, to this manufacturer, has been unreasonable. He tries to point out where his wares are being abused and he gets attacked.

Phil, the simple fact is that reproduction badges are anathema to the members of this forum so the reaction to the opening post is only to be expected.

[Neibelungen]

Originally Posted by Hoot

Be it intentionally or unintentionally, what you are doing could be construed as providing the means for the fraudsters to commit the crimes they do. We are all aware that these a---holes have no moral scruples whatsoever and are only out for financial gain so they must think the world of reproducers like you.

I take your point though in most cases the large scale reproduction of badges goes out to eastern europe and asia, though there are a few companies in the UK. I wouldn't deny that I've been approached more than a few times by sellers and dealers and asked if I could reproduce items for them. You can usually tell the type when they don't want a date and company name added to the item.

It's not a new phenomena though.. post the Boer War there was a major market for selling restrikes and surplus stock as a patriotic keepsakes plus various sweetheart broaches onwards.

There's always been a market for reproduction work, not just badges but furniture, watches, coins, paintings, antiques, clothing and fashion in particular and whenever there's a market for valueable objects beyond their cost price there's a market for faked items too. It goes right back to Roman times though the 18th century and the Grand Tour marks it's real start.

What's interesting is badge collectors do seem to demand a sense of proprietorship over their objects as if they had some exclusive calling on them. 'My god ! How dare somebody actually make a reproduction for a genuine reason.' When you compare that to say furniture or another non-trademarked or non-unique object. The vogue for Egyptian or Etruscan jewellery of the 19th century or tiffany style lamps etc. Romanesque, gothic and renaissance revivalism.

If I'm approached by a film company or a museum display company (full size figures) and asked to reproduce a specific badge I try to actually make something as accurate as possible. Film is looser as it's often just an impression they want to convey, but it feels an insult to make something wrong to the history of that actual unit. Museums want something accurate and often supply an existing original from their collection. They don't want to put originals on a reproduction uniform or have a sloppy substitute.

It can also be contrasted with work that comes from collectors.. A badge goes for repair or regilding and comes back with a bright modern glittery gold or the wrong style of lugs.. missing it's brass braize. I know there are differing opinions on the validity of this. It's not unknown for collectors to get something reproduced, say a back plate from a similar plate to go with the orginal centre they have to complete a set or a display.
A hat or helmet collector with a missing chinscale or boss. How many have bought in a plume to finish their display off ?


Reproductions have a place and a purpose and a demand, both within and without of collecting. There isn't an exclusivity that collectors can demand on the items they covet. I'm not going to appologise for that.
Perhaps what it does come down is really the intention to deceive and defraud the buyer. A key word may well be 'buyer'. Collectors may well swap, but how many will give away an object they attach a significant financial value too. A few perhaps... You all sell your surplus stock the same as any dealer.

Is a reproduction deceptive ?. Yes, but it's not intended to deceive by being what it isn't. That comes down to the seller and how far they have gone to conceal the true purpose.
A reproduction caters to a demand and a need within it's market, but it isn't creating that demand.
Facilitating the deception ? That's an open question, but that does come down to the integrity of the maker who knows it's intended to deceive.

Put it this way... cars kill people, but the car maker doesn't; unless they put defective parts in knowingly or carelessly. Decide when you want to blame the driver.

[Neibelungen]

I'm fine with the differing responses.. I quite understand the attitude and am not taking anything personally.

I represent a process that is controvertial and personally get irate when something I've done with care and hopefully my own sense of integrety is abused and exploited.

I have a sense of responsibility to it, and while I try to minimise it's potential I know no matter how hard I work to prevent it, it's going to happen. My own skills tell me it's impossible for it not to be possible to do.

I'll state for the record that I don't want any work and will refuse any requests. So don't accuse me of marketing and canvessing. Mac will tell you.... I'm crap at delivering in an acceptable timescale.

[Alex Rice]

As much as I detest what the fakes are doing to our hobby, I have no problem with what Neibelungen is doing and actually think his work is very good. It impresses me that he takes the time to mark his badges so there is no chance of him trying to fool people. Re-enacting looks like a fun hobby and I'm sure also promotes collecting. The biggest problem we have is that big companies can have fakers arrested but nobody cares if somebody selling fake badges is committing fraud because it is such small scale.
Cheers,
Alex

[fairlie63]

Originally Posted by billy

Hi Phil. and all,

Niebilungen has in the past put a thread on his manufacture of Helmet Plates for the Napoleonic War Re-enactors from the metals used through the manufacture process, a very interesting thread and he hit upon the fact that these where making there way to Ebay as Genuine items, the Thread was possibly 2 years ago "Ish" so He is Not making them to sell as Genuine items - rather for enthusiasts to Re-enact Waterloo, and possibly Film company's am sure he is reading this Thread and will pop in again but he isn't at fault here and someone more knowledgeable than I may help by digging out the link to it! At the time it was really well followed! I certainly enjoyed it as a Metalworker and he doesn't need being made responsible for other peoples greed! He brought us the knowledge that an item for sale and a Forum member was seeking advice on as he was about to buy it I think? he came forward and this then started the said thread, needless to say the Forum member held of buying an expensive mistake! All the best Billy

Totally agree, I recall that thread, Lancer plates wasn't it. Keith

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Neibelungen

Sold last summer, but not the first time I've had this chap sell stuff I made with a fake provenance and description.

I definately must have underpriced it.

You can even see the traces of my makers name at the back between the two hooks.

Purely out of interest and for future reference, would it be possible to see your maker mark?

With thanks,

JT

[magpie]

ALex, I've seen twice in the past 2 weeks that badgeman has been put inside, so perhaps people are beginning to do something.