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  #1  
Old 18-04-10, 06:25 AM
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mooke07 mooke07 is offline
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Smile Pagri badges

I have seen a few pagri badges and although familiar with particular ones like the Welsh Guards pagri and ones like the Devonshire's that are helmet plate centres on a long slider it has set me to wonder - how extensive were the pagri badges used and anything to look out for, any tips here gratefully accepted?

It would appear relatively easy to take a standard pattern badge and put a long slider on it and call it a pagri badge would it not ?

Cheers and hope my email gets through volcanic cloud, Dean
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  #2  
Old 18-04-10, 09:49 AM
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Dean, I've been thinking about this for a while too. From what I've read in the WO records etc I think we use the term pagri erroneously. Most of these badges were specifically sealed for the 'Foreign Service Helmet' (FSH)and the 'Universal Service Headdress' (=slouch hat). Both these items did indeed have pagris wrapped around them (there are even regulations about the number of folds - 7 I think).
I've still got to get to grips with "ordinary" badges - though I can tell you that most of what we call cap badges that originally appeared in the 1890s were specifically sealed for the "Field Service Cap" (and later the Forage (ie peaked) cap) and the FSH.
The other thing I do know again from official records is that the HPCs with sliders were specifically sealed for the slouch - and there were metal sockets made specially for them SO in fact the notion that these (at least) were for inserting into the folds of the pagri is wrong.
Finally, there are the usual regimental quirks - for example, lots of old photographs show that the KLR wore what looks like a cap badge on the front of their helmets above the pagri ! (long shanks would be irrelevant here but I wonder if they had long lugs ??!!)
Julian
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  #3  
Old 18-04-10, 09:59 AM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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The pagri subject is complicated. The are specific badges you find which are always refered to as pagri badges and these are different patterns (Buffs, East Surrey, Hants, Gloucestershire, KOYLI spring to mind) and these come with loops, a pagri pin and also the very long fixing shank. Then there are the modified helmet plate centres (Border, Essex, Devonshire are often seen examples) and these have the shank.
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  #4  
Old 18-04-10, 10:52 AM
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Thanks Julian and Keith for informative and authoratative replies. Much appreciated. What has spurred me is seeing a DLI badge on a very long slider offered for sale as a pagri badge and I had not seen one before to the DLI. Your replies help put this in context.

Many thanks Dean.
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  #5  
Old 18-04-10, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooke07 View Post
Thanks Julian and Keith for informative and authoratative replies. Much appreciated. What has spurred me is seeing a DLI badge on a very long slider offered for sale as a pagri badge and I had not seen one before to the DLI. Your replies help put this in context.

Many thanks Dean.
If it's one of a batch of similar items the seller has forget it, they're all fake.
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  #6  
Old 18-04-10, 11:47 AM
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Keith, it's precisely the "specific badges" that you refer to that I don't know much about. There are also officer's ones (usually S&G) with brooch type pins that are said to be pagri ones.
Incidentally, I don't think the HPCs with shanks have been 'modified' none of the ones I've seen (and am still searching for a KLR one !) have scars suggestive of removed loops on them.

Yes, it's the "cap" badges with very long sliders that puzzle me - and if they were unofficially (as in I haven't found any official reference) worn on a FSH / or slouch then they may justifiably have been stick in a pagri !? I don't know why we don't see many of the metal slider sockets about (they also had a pattern number which I'll look up in a minute !) , there are WO orders showing that thousands were ordered !! (one was illustrated in Crown Imperial a few years ago)
(I think grenade badges - as discussed elsewhere - are another matter, the late David Linaker was writing something about them but I don't know if he finished anything).
Before 1903 cap badges had loops/lugs and these might have been long ones if intended for the FSH (how thick are they ???). Curiously the 1926 pattern King's badge is often found with longish sliders and they are still officially sealed (in 1926) for cap and FSH but I happen to know that they had long been wearing a flash on the side of their FSHs.

Yes, I think I need to get out there and look at other regiment's specific requirements. But it takes a great deal of time just to look up details for just one regt let alone lots - that's why I'm encouraged to see so many other "single unit" collectors / researchers here. Ideally we can then look at general trends ! Julian
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  #7  
Old 19-04-10, 11:53 AM
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Many thanks to Julian and Keith for a lively discussion.

I like many members will be better informed about the perplexing issues around pagri and slouch hat badges.

I will try and focus in on a couple of family regiments and research them as best I can in this regard.

Kind regards and will not be adding DLI pagri to collection just yet!

Dean
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  #8  
Old 07-08-11, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
....Finally, there are the usual regimental quirks - for example, lots of old photographs show that the KLR wore what looks like a cap badge on the front of their helmets above the pagri ! (long shanks would be irrelevant here but I wonder if they had long lugs ??!!)
Julian
I shall resurrect this thread as I have been battling without much success lately to make sense of the badges and insignia worn in the F.S.H. Not so much those officially sealed for the FSH but those actually worn as Regiments do seem to have been able to excercise some freedom in what they wore in this headdress.

Regarding fusilier grenades I too have been wondering if those grenades with long loops might have been for with the FSH and may not be the sure sign of restrikes that I have been lead to believe in the past.

Thus I would be interested in any opinions, photos or references of Fusilier regements wearing glengarry pattern grenades in the FSH and especially any evidence that these badges with long loops might have been worn in this helmet.

John
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  #9  
Old 07-08-11, 09:57 AM
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Some badges listed as "Pagri" badges are often nothing more than 1903-06 produced badges, incorrectly described, as between this period the standard length of slider was longer (as pointed out by KLR in the past!). A few examples which were to hand are shown below. Also a rather nice Cameron Hldrs which I picked up this week, which has clearly been fitted with a longer slider for fitting in the FSH? It shows signs of where the lugs were to have been, whether they were ever fitted is another matter (I think not!).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF1001 (4).jpg (85.5 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1002 (3).jpg (93.8 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1003 (3).jpg (98.5 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1004 (2).jpg (98.8 KB, 101 views)
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  #10  
Old 07-08-11, 01:54 PM
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As a collector and researcher for over forty years the only way that you can solve your problem of what was worn with either the foreign service helmet or slouch hat to your particular regiment is to look through photographic archives and regimental orders and especially "Digests of Service", which in many cases tell's you the adoption of a certain device with the letter of approval and date.

From my own vewing of thousands of photographs over the years, as well as looking at the art work of military artists, you'll find that metal badges were in the minority and not the majorty, especially when dealing with the FSH.

The first pattern FSH(based on the Home Service pattern) which was worn universally overseas, but more often assocaited with the South African War, in general had scarlet cloth shoulder titles attached them or in the case of Jock regiments hackles, the red of the Royal Highlanders, springs to mind instantly.

These same badges in a lot of cases were transferred to the later patterns of FSH - i.e. the Wolsley, or were modified to suite. Again the Royal Artillery springs to mind with their red & blue cloth diamonds, with brass letters and numerals.

The same applies to the Infantry slouch hat, which in most cases did not have the pagri, so badges were to be found on the upturned rim side. Again in nearly all of the cases I have seen where the badge is clearly visible, it's usually the larger pattern badge associated with the Broderick, than specific patterns for the FSC, which is being worn.

With the slouch hat worn by the Cavalry and Imperial Yeomanry, which more commonly used the pagri, you have a different ball game altogether. Here rosettes and feather devices were worn along with letters and numerals. On top of which you then have the Mounted Infantry and their slouch hat, which I believe also sported the pagri.

In my own opinion it's all well and good collecting badges, but the the only way you'll ever get to the bottom of what was actually worn is to go out and look at the photographic and physical evidence of your particular regiment
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  #11  
Old 07-08-11, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Stewart View Post
As a collector and researcher for over forty years the only way that you can solve your problem of what was worn with either the foreign service helmet or slouch hat to your particular regiment is to look through photographic archives and regimental orders and especially "Digests of Service", which in many cases tell's you the adoption of a certain device with the letter of approval and date.

From my own vewing of thousands of photographs over the years, as well as looking at the art work of military artists, you'll find that metal badges were in the minority and not the majorty, especially when dealing with the FSH.

The first pattern FSH(based on the Home Service pattern) which was worn universally overseas, but more often assocaited with the South African War, in general had scarlet cloth shoulder titles attached them or in the case of Jock regiments hackles, the red of the Royal Highlanders, springs to mind instantly.

These same badges in a lot of cases were transferred to the later patterns of FSH - i.e. the Wolsley, or were modified to suite. Again the Royal Artillery springs to mind with their red & blue cloth diamonds, with brass letters and numerals.

The same applies to the Infantry slouch hat, which in most cases did not have the pagri, so badges were to be found on the upturned rim side. Again in nearly all of the cases I have seen where the badge is clearly visible, it's usually the larger pattern badge associated with the Broderick, than specific patterns for the FSC, which is being worn.

With the slouch hat worn by the Cavalry and Imperial Yeomanry, which more commonly used the pagri, you have a different ball game altogether. Here rosettes and feather devices were worn along with letters and numerals. On top of which you then have the Mounted Infantry and their slouch hat, which I believe also sported the pagri.

In my own opinion it's all well and good collecting badges, but the the only way you'll ever get to the bottom of what was actually worn is to go out and look at the photographic and physical evidence of your particular regiment
Totally agree with that sage advice, which chimes with my own experience. Here are some examples. Notice the distinctive 'V' shaped red pagri fold of the 'fighting fifth', Northumberland Fusiliers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Regimentalflash.jpg (13.2 KB, 78 views)
File Type: jpg 8thHussars.jpg (25.8 KB, 58 views)
File Type: jpg B88.jpg (26.2 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg SAPithCav.jpg (20.3 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg british_wolseley_big1.jpg (13.7 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg e8186840-e206-474e-8f64-b0ba4ea7b321.jpg (10.4 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg post-6628-1117797602.jpg (33.3 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg NorthumberlandFusiliers-800.jpg (32.5 KB, 54 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 07-08-11 at 07:53 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-08-11, 07:21 PM
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Graham Stewart Graham Stewart is offline
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Officers 1st Bn, NF prior to going to SA.jpg
Officers 1st Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, 1899 - prior to leaving for South Africa.

Northumberland_Fusiliers_-_Side.jpg
The Northumberlands F.S.H.

2-7th Bn, NF - Egypt in FSH.jpg
Members of the 2/7th Bn, NF - Egypt 1917.
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  #13  
Old 08-08-11, 07:39 AM
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Graham & Toby thank you for your input, what is your experience with regard to badges worn in the FSH by infantry prior to the Boer War in stations such as India?
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  #14  
Old 08-08-11, 08:45 AM
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Hello gentlemen,

I have a vested interest in this discussion in as much as I have several slidered, Scottish badges that are normally lugged and a couple of Guards badges that I believe are just slidered cap stars.

Normally whenever Pagri badges are mentioned, as in this debate, the emphasis is on the ' long ' slider, in my case I would like opinions on the fact that these badges are slidered with what I would call normal length sliders.

The Royal Scots Fusiliers is a little longer but it's a comparativelly larger badge, the Royal Scots and the KOSB's are shortish sliders ( for FSH's ) and the Highland Light Infantry is one that I have replaced the slider on, like for like.

None of these four show any signs of having had lugs previously and then being altered, my questions therefore, are they genuine Pagri badges with short sliders ? or are they perhaps copies/repros that have been fitted with sliders to make them more appealing to the unwary buyer ?? in this case me !

Your thoughts please gentlemen.

Dave.
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File Type: jpg Scotish badges. 001.jpg (73.7 KB, 30 views)
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File Type: jpg Scotish badges. 007.jpg (97.7 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg Scotish badges. 008.jpg (91.7 KB, 38 views)
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  #15  
Old 08-08-11, 09:35 AM
CftD CftD is offline
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There seems to be much repetition of this subject across many threads which makes me wonder if some means of consolidation might be possible to save trawling the fragments of information spread here, there and everywhere. I have expressed the view previously, already eloquently expressed on this thread, that the vast majority of pagri badges were cloth and not metal, either in the form of regimental flashes or embroidered devices, often similar to the woven epaulettes on scarlet tunics. David
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