KDG Bandsman's Pagri Badge

[1stTankie]

In 1915 the KDG replaced their Austrian Eagle Cap Badge with the new "Crown on Star" version. Similarly, at a later date, ( L&D suggest c1918) the new cap badge was worn as the WO's and Sgts Arm Badge. (It was thought that the collar badge with 2 lugs/loops, E/W, was worn but no evidence has been found to support this.) L&D state that the fixings of the new Arm Badge are a matter of speculation.

In the past year I have acquired 3 badges, each of which has had the vertical slider removed and replaced by a pin fastener in 2 instances and by lugs/loops in the third. All three appear to have been "DIY" particularly the lugged one.

I believe that all three were worn as KDG Arm Badges but would welcome opinions please.

Best wishes

Gordon

[Alan O]

You may well be right. It was however a fairly common practice for WW1 badges to be pinned for wear when in civilian clothes. I have seen photos with a variety of full sized cap badges being worn on jacket lapels.

[1stTankie]

Hi Alan

Thank you very much for your reply. You could be right.
However we have photographic evidence that it was worn as an Arm Badge; I'm not sure if any exists of a "civilian" wearing this particular one in a lapel.
Maybe that is asking too much. Until I see that I will continue to to believe they are Arm badges!!

Best wishes

Gordon

[Cardiffbloke]

Hello Gordon long time no hear!

Great badges you have there... The cap badge was definitely worn as an arm badge and not the collar badge as some people seem to think. I have reams of photographic evidence and a whole host of variants including one cast in solid silver made by Wew & Co (a now defunct jeweller from Brum). I also have a number of home made items as the badge was never officially sanctioned as an arm badge and therefore never manufactured for issue or sale . All of them have lugs or an excuse for lugs.... I have none with clasp fittings... then all of a sudden you find 3....I have to say though i am sceptical... I think they would have been a really 'sloppy' fit on the uniform and i tend to go with what Alan said. There are loads of brooched badges (collar type) in the museum, but no cap size badges... But hey!! Who will ever know... anyone that might have been able to say "yes my arm badge had a clasp" is now gone just like the guys who wore it with lugs... I certainly wont die in a ditch over it.... Maybe you can sell/trade one of them with me?

Regards Howard

[1stTankie]

Hi Howard

Good to hear from you; many thanks for your info and opinions.

I'm afraid I don't buy into the "these were modified for wear on plain clothes" syndrome. I have to admit I have never seen photographs of ex-soldiers wearing their badges this way. (this will no doubt produce a flood of examples that have somehow escaped my notice over the years, could even start a new thread) especially the KDGs who had this particular badge forced upon them, continued to ignore the order for as long as possible, and changed back to the eagle as soon as possible. Had they been given a referendum how many would have voted to retain the "Star and Garter", let alone wear it in their lapels?

Nor do I think the pin fastening would necessarily imply a sloppy fitting on the uniform. Done with care they would retain their position very precisely.
Similarly, the fact that the museum doesn't have one to me suggests that the curators in years gone by were not aware of them. There are loads of badges in the collectors' world that museums would love to have.

I rest my case but, as you so rightly say, we may never know.

If by way of exchange you feel you would like to put up the Wew & Co solid silver one I feel I might be persuaded!!

Best wishes

Gordon

[Alan O]

A relative of mine with a full sized RA badge on his lapel. Definitely a full sized cap badge. This is not an uncommon occurence and is seen on lots of WW1 photos for many regts.

[1stTankie]

Hi Rob

Would you accept that the middle one of the three shown could have been a "DIY" conversion to an Arm badge?

Gordon

[CftD]

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi Howard

Good to hear from you; many thanks for your info and opinions.

I'm afraid I don't buy into the "these were modified for wear on plain clothes" syndrome. I have to admit I have never seen photographs of ex-soldiers wearing their badges this way. (this will no doubt produce a flood of examples that have somehow escaped my notice over the years, could even start a new thread) especially the KDGs who had this particular badge forced upon them, continued to ignore the order for as long as possible, and changed back to the eagle as soon as possible. Had they been given a referendum how many would have voted to retain the "Star and Garter", let alone wear it in their lapels?

Nor do I think the pin fastening would necessarily imply a sloppy fitting on the uniform. Done with care they would retain their position very precisely.
Similarly, the fact that the museum doesn't have one to me suggests that the curators in years gone by were not aware of them. There are loads of badges in the collectors' world that museums would love to have.

I rest my case but, as you so rightly say, we may never know.

If by way of exchange you feel you would like to put up the Wew & Co solid silver one I feel I might be persuaded!!

Best wishes

Gordon

Gordon - I'm ging to disagree with your comments for two reasons. Firstly, there is VAST evidence of full-size cap badges being worn on civilian clothes and even as sweetheart brooches - this was not the exclusive province of the collar badge. Secondly, a pinned-on arm badge is a dangerous item - where is the anchorage to the tunic ? I could envisage many a ripped tunic arm due to a pinned-on badge becoming caught on something or other. Firm anchorage with lugs has always been the universal method of fitting - often with a reinforcing backplate. Regards. David

[1stTankie]

Hi Mike

I'm not sure how this thread came to be renamed "KDG Bandsman's Pagri Badge?"

Could you elucidate please?

Best wishes

Gordon

[Alan O]

There is an overwrite function on the titles allowing it to be amended for later filing.

[1stTankie]

Alan

Thank you

Gordon