Victorian artillery officer uniform?

[phaethon]

Hi all,

I came accross with the military jacket in Dublin and I would like to learn more in order to make a decision to get it or not.

Because I do not know almost anything about this uniform, then help would be great. Unfortunately I was able to make only two pictures with my phone and the quality is very bad because that.

To me looks like it is artilleery uniform jacket first at all because "grenades" on the collars. Its this kind a "pinguin" style like a frack. Buttons are crowns with the older gun under it - like a artillery badge.
Also there is screw posts on the shoulders, what makes me think its an officer one. Also cufftitles on the arms lloks pretty fancy.
There is some kind a loops or something on the left chest, what makes me think that there was an awards.

Its came out from Dublin area, so if its not artillery, maybe some kind a militia unit?

Any help would be great to ID it, also approx value and rarity.

Regards,

Timo

[phaethon]

Hi guys,

Coming half an hour I am heading back to the place to look at that uniform and I have to make my decision to get it or not.

As much iIlooked around now, I guess it can be volunteer artillery officer's tunic (Dublin City Artillery Militia????). Closest picture on internet I found here (uniform on the right):

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=1630582

Also I am 100% sure that its artillery and its Victorian. Similar photos from Australian museum site:





Does any of you can advise me please with the aprox. value and rarity - I think to buy it but hate to pay too much. There is some buttons missing but meantime fabric is in good condition.

Kind Regards,

Timo aka Phaethon

[revdougal]

The Cuff Embroidery on the initial tunic is similar to that illustrated in Dress Regs for the Army 1900, in respect to a "Field Officer RA" - as shown in Plate 28. The second tunic has the adornment for a Subaltern Officer RA.

[colin 17]

Volunteer Artillery wore silver lace but Militia did wear gold so it possibly is Dublin Militia Artilery. If it had shoulder cords there would have had an M on them. Arty shoulder cords are easy to get. The M a bit harder but not impossible. It is a tunic for Majors and higher pre 1900 later on all officers wore the basic lace. If it is in good shape its worth anywhere up to 150 200 GBP.

Colin

[phaethon]

Better photos made today and thank you guys for all the info - it has been to me interesting random study moment - unfortunately nothing more, because owner is looking silly money for that now.

So, it is surelly Victorian era (pre 1900) Artillery officer tunic. Owner's rank was Major or higher.
Because golden lace, most likely owner of the jacket served with the Dublin City Artillery Militia.

There should be 9 buttons on the front. Unfortunately front side missing few buttons and one is different then others.
Rest of the buttons are all artillery ones with the Queen's crown. Unfortunately I forgot to check the maker on the back.



one different button (looks like Edward period - WW1 replacemen)



Bombardier’s chevrons at crimson collar trim. This one button is added later and should not be in there. Actually there are one screw posts at each neck edge for epaulettes as you can see on the second shot.

[phaethon]

Two flaps at back on either side of vent with two rows of bullion and three brass buttons on each flap (sorry, on the picture possible to see only two)



Senior officer arm cuffs (?)



one edge is slightly loose but probably easy to fix



front no holes, etc

[Toby Purcell]

The tunic you have found is for a Royal Artillery officer of 'Field Rank' (Major to full Colonel) from between 1880 (when rank was moved to shoulder straps) and 1902 (when the cuff lace was modified to the previously 'junior' (i.e. subaltern and captain) officer level, as standard - this was to reduce cost as officers had to buy their own uniforms). The collar lace is of the highest level and thus for a Colonel. It is therefore quite rare.

I enclose some photos of a similar uniform but the shoulder wings are incorrect and have been added to the uniform by mistake. Instead these were of twisted gold cord with the badges mounted on top. The collar grenade was in silver on the tunic (to contrast with the gold lace) for all parts of the artillery, including the Militia.

[revdougal]

The expression "Subaltern" in the days of these tunics covered the rank of Captain. Nowadays it applies to 2Lt & Lt, leaving Captains on their own!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by revdougal

The expression "Subaltern" in the days of these tunics covered the rank of Captain. Nowadays it applies to 2Lt & Lt, leaving Captains on their own!

I am sorry, but that is categorically not true. The term Subaltern has always covered only the ranks (variously) at Lieutenant level, including Lieutenant, Cornet, Ensign, Sub-Lieutenant and Second Lieutenant.

The rank of Captain was a substantial elevation as it commanded (except in the artillery) sub-units such as companies, troops and (later) squadrons. To achieve one's 'captaincy' was to be elevated above the level of lieutenants (de facto 'assistants') and to take 'command' of a distinct body. This has been the case as far back as Medieval times and is mentioned in scores of sources, including accounts of the English Civil War. Examination of the earliest examples of English dictionaries (under 'subaltern') will also bear this out.

The collective term for Lieutenants was (and still is) 'Subalterns' and the collective term for Captains and Lieutenants was 'Company Officers' (today 'Junior Officers'). Officers above these latter were collectively 'Field Officers', up as far as the first ranks of General grade.

[Lampwick]

My brain hurts following this!!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Lampwick

My brain hurts following this!!

It's more straightforward than it looks. The problem is that the lowest Lieutenant grade had its title changed several times. Captain, however, has remained consistent and has always been in a category above Lieutenant, although its status dropped somewhat when sub-unit command was standardised for the rank of Major (previously it had been artillery only) in the mid 1920s. To a degree the rank of Major also lost out in status as a result, because there had previously been far fewer of that rank in each unit.

[revdougal]

I stand corrected - thank you. But what I have said has been used on official Army Regulations, especially when dealing with badges of rank at that level; hence my being led astray.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by revdougal

I stand corrected - thank you. But what I have said has been used on official Army Regulations, especially when dealing with badges of rank at that level; hence my being led astray.

Yes, there were some periods when lacing and/or insignia (but not the precise badge of rank) were the same for Captains and Lieutenants (aka Subalterns), but the two levels nonetheless remained distinct and separate in all other respects. The superiority of the Captain (the commander at sub unit level for much of the Army's history) had to be apparent to all.

Phaeton,
The other buttons shown; shield with three cannon, etc., is for Officers Royal Army Ordnance Corps post 1902. The one shown on the shoulder by the collar is for the Worchestershire Regiment, 1881-1902, if that's a Victorian Crown.
I can't understand what you're refering to by 'Bombardier’s chevrons at crimson collar trim' but if you're referring to the embroidered grenade on the collar, that's the RA's officers' insignia of the No. 1 Dress.
Nice acquisition.
Rgds,
button_guru
-----------------------------
Buttons aren't just a hobby.........

[phaethon]

Can someone help me please with the aprox. value of this uniform as it is...

Regards,

Timo aka Phaethon