Hammer and Pincers

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Team

I have looked around in the albums and on the net as to date I havent come across this type of heavy embroidered on wool (2.5mm thick) armourer trade badge.
The ones I have seen are flat and the pincers are embroidered onto a wool/felt(?) backing.

This one is thick about 2.5mm , has a voided pincer with black paper backing.

The colour is differant to what I have seen, this is on darker green wool and the hammer and pincers embroidered light grey(?) and green.

Would this be WWII era or before?

cheers

Phill

[JerryBB]

Picked up this ra set today, WWII from the titles and with similar pincers badge to yours

[Phill Lockett]

Nice set Jerry

The one I have is thick about 2.5mm same thickness as a chevron.

Also its lot more green than khaki , I read "somewhere" that the Canadian woolen serge BD was more of a green shade than British made Khaki/ Olive drab colour?

Possibly Canadian made?

I would like to know if the one I have is pre WWII.

Now we both need the Arm of service Strip!

cheers

Phill

[JerryBB]

thanks Phil

some detail scans of the badge.

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Jerry

Yeah I think your right , very similar with some manufacturing traits but made by different manufacturers.

They both look good and your set looks even better.

cheers

Phill

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Hi Jerry

Yeah I think your right , very similar with some manufacturing traits but made by different manufacturers.

They both look good and your set looks even better.

cheers

Phill

It is one of the oldest (possibly the oldest) trade badges worn on uniform in the British Army. It first appears in published dress regulations in 1864, where it’s use is mentioned for the Royal Artillery. However it’s also known to have been worn by the Corps of Armourer Sergeants raised in 1858. It was also used by artificers of the Corps of Royal Engineers and the Army Service Corps. As all these corps or functions had not long previously been integrated parts of the Board of Ordnance, there is strong circumstantial evidence that the badge originated there, rather like the fired grenade badge did too.

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks for your input Toby.

Maybe the one I have shown is earlier , hopefully it can be ID to a specific era.

cheers

Phill

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Thanks for your input Toby.

Maybe the one I have shown is earlier , hopefully it can be ID to a specific era.

cheers

Phill

Your ‘drab’ woven worsted badge is almost certainly a badge associated with the drab khaki serge frock of 1899 and it’s successor service dress** of 1902 Phill, as that is the uniform for which the badges were primarily intended, although they were also subsequently used on cotton khaki drill.

**that directly evolved from the 1899 frock.

[cbuehler]

As with most such embroidered badges, they can be impossible to date with certainty.
I would certainly surmise that these hand embroidered types are pre or early WW2 however. Generally, WW1 can often have a certain look to them that is different from WW2, but as always, earlier badges without doubt did make it onto BD, thus confusing the matter.
I would also not try to make too much of the shade of the backing, or even the shade of the embroidery thread, as the various makers over the years used what they had on hand.

CB

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Toby

Thanks for the added clarification of when the badge was issued and the uniform it was intended for.

Hi CB

I agree that dating specific cloth insignia is hard after so many years and little information and what there is , is in repositories or private collections/museums etc..

However in this instance I beleive Toby has made valid points and indicators that this Artificer/Armourer trade badge pre dates WWII era.

Being relitively new to collecting British cloth badges (5 years) one has found out that cloth badges were reissued and used until stocks were exhausted,design changed or possibly if a newer uniform was adopted,so they could be in use for 40 plus years ie WWI RN Trade cloth badges etc..

To me its the intent behind the badge that it was made for that specific uniform/era, that puts it where it should be. Whether it was used in WWI or later thats part of its history.

So I beleive Toby's assessment is more acurate.


thanks for the input guys

Phill

[Phill Lockett]

Here is the "dress" version that came with the grouping.

This could be anywhere from 1899-1950.

It had calcium from I guess the wire bullion hence the discolouration.

cheers

Phill

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Hi Toby

Thanks for the added clarification of when the badge was issued and the uniform it was intended for.

Hi CB

I agree that dating specific cloth insignia is hard after so many years and little information and what there is , is in repositories or private collections/museums etc..

However in this instance I beleive Toby has made valid points and indicators that this Artificer/Armourer trade badge pre dates WWII era.

Being relitively new to collecting British cloth badges (5 years) one has found out that cloth badges were reissued and used until stocks were exhausted,design changed or possibly if a newer uniform was adopted,so they could be in use for 40 plus years ie WWI RN Trade cloth badges etc..

To me its the intent behind the badge that it was made for that specific uniform/era, that puts it where it should be. Whether it was used in WWI or later thats part of its history.

So I beleive Toby's assessment is more acurate.


thanks for the input guys

Phill

As a general rule Phill the thicker the thread that makes up the design the older the badge. Worsted thread (a robust wool type) was thicker and hard wearing and so commonly used for the early badges. It was even described as such in the nomenclature of the time. Later on cotton thread began to be used that was notably thinner. I don’t have any images of the “hammer and pincers” badge where the date and provenance can be verified but I can show some other badges to give an impression of the thickness of the thread. The same thread was used for the early woven regimental shoulder titles. The transition to thinner threads at scale seems to have begun during the long course of WW1 so that by wars end a mixture could be seen.

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Toby

When Im looking at a cloth badge, I do note that one of the indicators could be the thickness of the thread (worsted wool thread in this case) can be earlier than that of WWII thinner silk thread, which to me is a possible sign of pre WWII issue.

The same manufacturer would have used the same manufacturing process,machinery/loom, construction and thread between 1899-1920 and as you say transitioned from thick to thinner thread.

Updated technology plays a big part then as it does now.

Now to figure out how to tell WWI chevrons from WWII!!!

cheers

Phil