GROVE B'HAM Fake Mark

[GriffMJ]

Hi All

First time have have see one of these..... its a genuine WW2 period (unmarked) Gaunt made LYPAO cap badge that's been stamped with a fake GROVE MFG B'HAM mark.

[11th Armoured]

So, making a legitimate badge illegitimate, by virtue of trying to make it look legitimate...? The mind boggles!

Coincidentally, I came across a Grove marked Lincolns badge the other day that I'd not seen before. It's the smaller font version though, which I believe is considered to be OK?

The slider looks to have been repaired or possibly replaced however, so I can't say for certain that it originally belonged with this badge unfortunately.


Kevin

[GriffMJ]

....the thinking might have been..... that an umarked badge was worth less than a marked badge..... hence the fake mark? 1970s probably?

[Mike H]

The font on the Lincs badge looks very similar to the Grove mark used on their anodised badges. Probaly a genuine marked slider.

The Leicestershire Yeomanry has a horrid mark. Doesnt look right at all. Why add it to a genuine item ?

[KLR]

There is another explanation...
(they are not fakes !)


There was an all WM version of the BM regular King's Regt (Pattern 14312/1950) which was a 'Walking Out' badge.

There are three marked makers - all of which I am certain they are genuine.
Smith & Wright
Gladman & Norman
Grove Mfg

The interesting thing is that the Gladman and the Grove are both IDENTICAL to the S&W (the WM and the original BM) dies.
G&N and Grove were small companies and I suggest that S&W made these for these companies and stamped their names accordingly.

(I believe that the S&W Pattern book belongs to a well known auction company !).


I suggest therefore, that Gaunt also made LYPAO badges for Grove also.

[GriffMJ]

In all my years of collecting LYPAO ..... thats the ONLY one I have seen?

[Neil s]

I have this posted on a King's own thread at the moment the comment about w/m walkingout badge attracted my attention
IMG_20210116_174426.jpg

[grey_green_acorn]

As I commented in the other thread I am certain that it is a Birmingham Mint badge with a faked GROVE slider. The ‘silvered’ Kings Own badge has featured a number of times on the Forum, often with aspirations that it was the RAC 107 regiment version. Birmingham Mint badges were made by Gaunt in the early 1970s, so no reason for a GROVE slider?

But never say never!

Tim

[Sonofacqms]

I have recently been looking at my little collection some of which originated in the early 1950's, there are very few maker marked sliders amongst them.

The first maker marked sliders I encountered were JR Gaunt London on QC badges which I bought from a tailors shop in Ipswich, naturally these were all currently worn badges for sale to serving soldiers.

Where have all these badges been with named sliders?

When you think that during the Great War some normal bi-metal cap badges were made in all brass (gilding metal) to save time and money would they have bothered or even had time to stamp their names on sliders, surely the customer, the War Office would have disagreed with this operation as totally a waste of time and money. After all, they were the only customer!

Rob

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

I have recently been looking at my little collection some of which originated in the early 1950's, there are very few maker marked sliders amongst them.

The first maker marked sliders I encountered were JR Gaunt London on QC badges which I bought from a tailors shop in Ipswich, naturally these were all currently worn badges for sale to serving soldiers.

Where have all these badges been with named sliders?

When you think that during the Great War some normal bi-metal cap badges were made in all brass (gilding metal) to save time and money would they have bothered or even had time to stamp their names on sliders, surely the customer, the War Office would have disagreed with this operation as totally a waste of time and money. After all, they were the only customer!

Rob

Rob I’ve seen you state this on several occasions now. Forgive me but you seem to be suggesting all pre-1950s non-Gaunt makers marks are fake or spurious? Because they’re not.

Statements like that can really confuse readers and can promote myths or cast doubts where there ought to be none.

Just because you had not seen them doesn’t mean they don’t exist and exist in quantity.

I would imagine barely 30 years after the end of WW1 a great many of said badges were in the possession of the original owners or their family put away in boxes and attics in the 1950s.

In the 1950s I would imagine there was significantly less ‘movement’ of badges around the country, firstly due to many WW1-era badges being of low value but also the lack of both demand and a platform to do this in bulk.

Keith Hook has told me several tales of him sourcing Yeomanry and rarer badges by visiting the recruitment area for the relevant unit. Which I think bears out this microcosm. The country and world was a bigger place then by virtue of less movement.

Nowadays we have dealer websites, eBay, auction houses and private collections available and stored online meaning at the click of a button you can see more badges front and back in half hour than you would ever be able to inspect walking round a fair all day.

Finally records have born out many companies made badges, yes there are fake makers and fake makers marks but plenty real ones corresponding to the contemporaneous written records. Throw in they’ve been found in stratified collections (pre-fake floor), come from families with medals etc. whilst also ticking all the right boxes from a manufacturing, patina, wear point of view etc. there can be no doubt as to their existence and originality. To suggest this is all untrue is unhelpful and incorrect.

[Luke H]

Just to be clear the above isn’t in relation to the Grove marks in this thread - which are all fake!

Also ironically Grove marked sliders are I believe of post WW2 manufacture.

Re GGA’s point I have seen fake makers marks stamped on badges well after they were clearly made. Adding a new fake mark to an older fake badge to increase the deception is something I’ve seen a couple times.

[KLR]

"Grove are recorded in Birmingham telephone books at 234 Great King Street from 1933 to 1958. In 1933 they are described as Grove Mfg. Co, Clasps but from 1935 they are Grove Manufacturing Comany Limited; smallwares. In December 1962 their business was described as ‘button makers’ but the reference is that liquidators were appointed."

[Paul Spellman]

Julian,
I think your confusing the Button Maker of Halesowen Bham with the Can Opener maker of Great Hampton St. not Gt.King St. attached is the only Grove’s listed for War Contracts, James Grove of Halesowen BHam a long standing military button maker for many of their years ceased trading in 2012, they didn’t make badges.

After long research on this subject I don’t believe that Regular Regt OR’s badges provided through the system (WD Contracts) were maker marked certainly up to at least WW2 and also after 1916 any WD supplied badges to Territorial Regts or Yeomanry, most certainly many TA/Yeo and VB badges before 1916 were not always marked by makers either and any that are are in small numbers

Two often found marks FN (attributed to Narborough) and Woodward did not have wartime contracts to make badges. Frederick Narborough’s company history states that they made component parts for the Birmingham Small Arms Trades during WW1, originally they were cane makers expanding to jewellery and in the 1920/30’s became Mace makers after becoming Darnam and Narborough today part of Ammo
Another company Lambournes marked their wares Lambournes and were never known as Lambournes & Co.
Genuine OSD badges can be found plus many other items they made as well as their advertising over the period of their history shows only Lambournes with no (& Co)

Most maker marked badges would be deemed duff if the maker mark was not there with many being poor quality and badges with overlays lacking braising holes would put the makers of these particular badges 20-30 years ahead of the more established makers in terms of techniques used
It’s also interesting that you don’t find any marked badges to the likes of Vaughtons, Twigg or Dingleys and others who were awarded War Contracts to make Badges and not on a small scale.

Paul

Grove companies with WW1 War Work contracts
The middle paragraph shows war work contracts and the 3rd is their pre war work

[Sonofacqms]

Luke,
Maybe I phrased my post wrong and if I have muddied the waters I am sorry, I have some maker marked badges in my collection, three bearing the mark of SUTTLE CAMBRIDGE, two were bought in a lot at auction along with other Great War items. The other on a car boot sale.

Suttle had two gentleman's tailors shops in Cambridge which have long disappeared and I would think after collecting and buying badges for over 65 years in and around the Cambridge area I would have more, sadly not.

We have some excellent researchers on this forum, far more knowledgeable than I am and I have learned a lot from being a member of this forum, no doubt there are many original maker marked sliders on badges, but there are also a lot which are wrong and they do seem more prolific now.

I have been caught out by a less than honest dealer with a maker marked slider, which is why I am wary of them, as for Great War badges being of low value sixty years ago, I beg to differ, I have some of Bill Tobins lists from the sixties and RND badges were expensive even then, of course all badge prices are generally relevant

I would be interested to know how many original "Hate Belts" or "Trophy Belts" that are attributed to the Great War era actually have named sliders on them.

Rob

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

After long research on this subject I don’t believe that Regular Regt OR’s badges provided through the system (WD Contracts) were maker marked certainly up to at least WW2 and also after 1916 any WD supplied badges to Territorial Regts or Yeomanry, most certainly many TA/Yeo and VB badges before 1916 were not always marked by makers either and any that are are in small numbers

Two often found marks FN (attributed to Narborough) and Woodward did not have wartime contracts to make badges. Frederick Narborough’s company history states that they made component parts for the Birmingham Small Arms Trades.
Another company Lambournes marked their wares Lambournes and were never known as Lambournes & Co.
Genuine OSD badges can be found plus many other items they made as well as their advertising over the period of their history shows only Lambournes with no (& Co)

Most maker marked badges would be deemed duff if the maker mark was not there with many being poor quality and badges with overlays lacking braising holes would put the makers of these particular badges 20-30 years ahead of the more established makers in terms of techniques used
It’s also interesting that you don’t find any marked badges to the likes of Vaughtons, Twigg or Dingleys and others who were awarded War Contracts to make Badges and not on a small scale.

Paul

F.E. Woodward did have wartime contracts. Ticker Riley’s excellent research of Board of Trade Labour Gazettes 1914-19 shows them as being awarded ‘metal badge’ contracts in October & December 1915, February, May, June, July, August & September 1916, March 1917. See post #13:
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...Ticker+gazette

As to FN. The only FN badge that can supposedly be categorically dated to WW1 would be the 1916 all GM SWB with the ‘nipples’ north and south. Personally I have always been uncomfortable with it due to the shorter squarer slider. For me I have felt more comfortable with and regarded FN as a later post WW1 manufacturer.

Additionally it’s worth noting several FN dies have been re-used to produce restrikes from original dies.

Lambourne were also known as Lambourne & Co. attached is the extract from the Board of Trade Labour Gazette with their address. I’ve also seen ‘& Co’ marked on their sheet brass items and also civilian buttons and cufflinks.

Notwithstanding badges from the same Lambourne dies can be found with marks ‘Lambourne & Co’ and ‘Lambournes’. A nice example is the Leinster all GM issue here... https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ourne+Leinster & https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ourne+Leinster

Re the OSDs, Lambourne appear to have made and marked comparatively few OSD, most strangely marking the tangs. You may be interested in this thread https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...mbourne&page=2 posts #22, #27 and #33. You will find a Hunts Cyclists OSD and the same die used to make OR badges one marked Lambournes and the other Lambourne & Co.

I suspect it’s a case that akin to the recent PPE crisis in the pandemic that in WW1 many different companies with no or limited experience in manufacture of such items took on contracts for national good and financial gain.

This rush and urgency of the situation does offer explanation for lack of finesse in some designs and manufacture in some cases. Simply I expect the braze hole situation was a case of certain new badge manufacturers ‘not having the ‘ology’ so to speak. I would not say these were ahead of their time as most often such badges, specifically Lambourne, ended up like a pigs ear and nothing that would be accepted outside a world war!

Equally I do realise that in many cases of fakery quality is lacking but I feel there is a difference in many modern (post 1970s) items which are beyond the scope of this post. Rounded letter ends, hollow jewels in crowns, coarse seeding etc. etc.

Other makers, such as Smith & Wright, again on the list, actually on the whole produced rather nice quality badges including several all GM 1916 issues.

Ultimately manufacturers who used marks did not mark every badge, far from it, in fact it’s only a minority that are marked. Likewise it would appear big makers like Bent & Parker, Jennens etc. never marked ORs badges (if they made them - I know KLR has order lists) yet we regularly their marked officers badges.

In conclusion I do not feel there is a one size fits all rule or explanation for each company’s activities or reasons for marking/not marking.

... this thread and some of the misinformation about makers and marks is starting to feel like Donald Trumps Twitter account.