Regina Rifles Battle Dress

[edstorey]

My assessment of the BD in question is not based on the badge placement. There are other factors that need to be taken into consideration when assessing this or other items.

[Roberto T]

Thanks for the replies all,

Mike, I am referring to pics of the Chaudiere available from LAC. We'll keep in touch and hopefully run into each other at the shows....

I have been meaning to photograph my collection for ages..... Ill post them up when I get around to it.... Ill make sure to include my named Chaudiere BD for you Mike.

[GCR817]

Hello All,

I have watched the posts regarding this tunic with interest as it was I that sold the tunic to Roberto.

I know that everyone is skeptical about tunics these days as there are certainly a number of faked up ones appearing on eBay etc. However, for the record, I have rather a good collection (if I dare say so) and collect to Saskatchewan Regiments in particular. This tunic was the fourth Regina Tunic that I have had (I can't keep them all).

I examined this tunic in detail, the stitching, wear on the patches, etc etc. I agree that the stripes are not to regulation but then, how many guys do you think cared about placement etc when they were coming home and sewing on their own insignia? Ever noticed that the machine sewn patches are usually perfectly placed (ie a tailor did it) vs the hand stitched stuff?

You can see the differences today on the insignia on my own uniforms which I wear (and I was an Adjt! Yikes).

Anyhow, I respect everyones' opinions but I beleive this tunic is good!

Geoff Robinson

[edstorey]

Geoff, did Roberto mention to you that he was going to post images and a question about this BD on a couple of forums in order to have it critiqued?

[Roberto T]

Hi Geoff!

Thanks for joining in on the conversation. As you can see by my posts..... I am on the fence with the BD....... Ed, I did tell Geoff I would be seeking others opinions and would be contacting him back. I see no issue with posting for opinions on a forum an item that can generate this much conversation. It is what the forum is for. Ed, for some reason, I feel like you are suspicious that something strange is going on........ When frankly there is not. I have been doing this for over 10 years and had my first table at the etobicoke show 5 years ago...... and know many of the same people you do. I dont quite understand your hostility............ I am not a dealer and only sell items I cannot keep due to space or interest. I have high personal integrity, standards and respect others expertise(which is why I seeked you regarding this difficult BD). I can tell you from experience as a plastic surgeon in Toronto (google my name) if you dont ask for help in certain situations, you get yourself into trouble.
My dealing with Geoff has been great... I am not questioning him or his integrity what so ever...... I am questioning the BD for similar reasons as you....... Geoff was absolutely open to me receiving other opinions (though I did not specify posting on a forum). If someone would not be open to having an item for sale critiqued, I would walk away from it as it is a red flag..... People that have nothing to hide, hide nothing... case in point Geoff displayed his integrity by explaining that he is the one that sold me the tunic.

[Bill A]

Welcome to the discussion Geoff. Did you have any additional information or provenance that could be used to evaluate the tunic? I certainly respect your opinion. My thinking is based on what I can see in the images, and when asked for an opinion, that is what I have used as evidence. What use the consumer makes of the opinions expressed is their choice. I am not completely sure of this tunic either way, but I have more concerns than I have assurances.
Unfortunately, as you say there have been a proliferation of tunics being sold recently that are highly suspect, and have raised everyone's caution levels. (Or should, if it hasn't.) Second World War tunics are limited in number, and their survivability is far less than that of medals or metal badges. But, as I said earlier the means to make up a battledress are readily available and it seems, at least on the open market, the sum is worth far more than the parts. This seems to be driving the greed factor.
Some thoughts about uniforms that are not central to this tunic, but of which collectors should be aware. Making up tunics is not a recent phenomena, nor was making up tunics only done for financial gain. Several times over my time collecting I have been approached for bits and pieces to complete, restore, or re-make a uniform for a veteran or his family. This has included shoulder titles, rank badges, formation patches, service chevrons, buttons, and fabric (for repairs) etc. Some of these requests were for replacements for one or two items that had been removed, while others were for a complete fabrication, but it was done to get a tunic for the vet or his family. In one case this came full circle. Several years after assisting in a recreation, I was offered the same tunic as dad's SWW battledress. If I had not known the history, it would have completely fooled me.
On the other side of the coin, a dealer, now long deceased, was noted for his ability to find uniforms that collectors were seeking. And they passed all the uv, burn tests, thread counts, etc, etc. But it turned out he was a master at using original material to "make up" uniforms. A really tricky wicket, as they say, because the "fantasy" tunic was "original" in every sense of the word, except that the original tunic and insignia had never existed together until he married them.
Roberto, I agree fully with your comment, the various Fora should be used for an open upfront discussion about the material we collect. Most collectors want the assurance that what they have is authentic original material.

[edstorey]

Roberto, perhaps you do not see it, but what you are doing is playing this forum. Here is your first post:

"Hi all,

First post on this forum. I would appreciate your feedback on this BD. I am unsure of the shoulder titles and would love a second opinion. I have had a knowledgeable collector take a look prior and he felt it was a solid tunic but couldnt comment with certainty about the shoulder titles.

Thanks a lot!"

Why could you have not mentioned in this first message that the other ‘knowledgeable collector’ is in fact a forum member? This message is the standard style that pops up all the time from new or inexperienced collectors who are fishing for answers that for whatever reason they cannot seem to find on their own. Many like yourself are looking for free appraisals or advice or are trying to justify purchasing some item that they have no knowledge of. The term ‘knowledgeable collector’ does not carry much weight and I have seen it used like confetti to describe all manner of collectors and enthusiasts so when I see this in a vague initial post like yours, I figure so what; he talked to the kid down the street who owns a couple of uniforms.

You obviously purchased the badged tunic from Geoff in good faith and I have no doubt that Geoff has nothing to hide. From his post he stands by the item and that is all well and good. On the other hand why you could not have mentioned in your initial post that you had bought it from Geoff, you had both discussed the item and agree that the insignia is worth further assessment on internet forums escapes me.

I am not hostile, just curious why you were not forthright in your posts.

I am also trying to figure how mentioning your profession or when you first had a table at a show has anything to do with this discussion. Your professional ethics are not being called into question and whether or not you are a Supreme Court judge or a bus driver has little bearing on your collecting; other than how much money you can afford to spend on it.

From what I see in the photographs posted, and until other information comes to light, I stand by my assessment that this badged tunic combination was fabricated from original elements.

[Roberto T]

Ed,

To be blunt I feel as though you are attacking my motives. I have been respectuful, polite and grateful for the help. I mentioned my profession to shed light that I am not a dealer, I dont see these as investments and that I have the best intentions and am an honest person. These forums exist to get others opinions. I am sure you seek others opinions when you are unsure about something. Furthermore, Geoff has no problem with me seeking others opinions.

My first post mentioned a knowledgable collector who is not a forum memeber whos opinion I trust. He agreed with me about certain good and bad qualities of then tunic and that is why I posted......... I did not disclose his name beacuse I didnt want to skew opinion but I did want to get specific answer regarding the titles........ If you really want to know who it was I can tell you....

[GCR817]

Gentleman,

Why don't we keep this friendly. Roberto bought the tunic from me in good faith and told me that he would like to seek the opinion of others. We agreed upon an inspection period in which the tunic could be returned if Roberto so wished.

I don't take offence to the tunic being posted on the forum. For the record I doubt that Roberto knew I was a forum member (not that it matters in anycase).

I wish I could tell you that I bought the tunic from Mrs X, daughter of Corporal X, D Day veteran, B Coy, etc etc. But, I bought it from a fellow collector and friend who has had the tunic for number of years. It had surfaced in an antique shop.

It is always difficult to get a real feel for anything based solely on photos. If we could pass it back and forth for inspection over a beer or too, I think most doubts would be relieved.

Geoff

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by Tanker Mike

The spacing of the flashes is what concerns me, the spacing has to be uniform according to regulations, especially to rifle regiments. And the tunic is for a cpl, he is a junior NCO and has to show leadership to the junior ranks, you would think the stripes would be sewn on to the regulations.

As a note of trivia, Rifle Regiments did not have lance corporals - "acting corporals" also wore 2-bar chevrons as shown in the photo, at least, in theory. Having said that, I've seen photos of soldiers in Canadian rifle regiments with 1-bar chevrons on their sleeves during the Second World War, so I'm still trying to figure out how closely - if at all - they followed the old traditions. One of the curators of one of the regimental museums insisted to me that they "never" had lance corporals, but a wise collector told me that just wasn't the case.

The bugle-horn disc of the QOR is a well-known badge in collector's circles; it distinguished an "acting" corporal from a full corporal.

[Roberto T]

Hi Michael,

Are you sure this applied to the regiments during WWII? A quick review of the Canadian War dead of the Regina Rifles reveals many lance corporals..........
Copy paste link

http://wwii.ca/memorial/world-war-ii...gina%20Rifles/

[Roberto T]

Please see attached pic, I am fairly certain rifle regiments had lance corporals!

[Bill A]

Nice image Roberto. Do you have the source for it?
Note the Regina Rifles shoulder title, it is a different shape than the commonly found pattern. Here is an image of some titles to show the varieties. The lance corporal's title looks like the more oval one.
The blackened webbing on the Royal Winnipeg Rifles fellow is also worth noting. Great details in that pic.

[WJ Miller]

Bill,

That photo can be found as part of the LAC's "Faces of War" online.

The caption /credit with it is:
Title:
Canadian soldiers examining the Memorial Park Plaque, Ede, Netherlands, 7 November 1945. (L-R): Lance-Corporal L.H. Smith, 1st Battalion, The Canadian Scottish Regiment; Lance-Corporal J.T. Adams, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles; Lance-Corporal P. Tarnowski, Regina Rifle Regiment

Location: Ede, Netherlands

Date: November 7, 1945.

Photographer: Bell, Ken., Photographer
Mikan Number: 3208301

Visit the virtual exhibition Faces of War.

[appie_b]

Hi,

The memorial park in my home town of Ede, and contains a mausuleum where 27 members of the local resistance are burried. The memorial was build by canadian troops who stayed in the village at the time.

This monument is the place where the town remebers the dead of WW2 each year at the 4th of may.

it is very emotional place as one of my family members is burried there too, situated on a small hill overlooking the town.


Albert.