Glamorgan and 9th Lancers.

[jfenzy1]

Hi all,
I would welcome comments on these 2 badges please.

[Luke H]

The 9L is good but the Glam I.Y. is a fake.

[Sonofacqms]

I am never keen on 9th Lancers badges with copper wire soldered on the reverse, others may disagree.

Rob

[Frank Kelley]

The Delhi Spearmen is a typical example, with some age to it, the Glamorgan is manufactured with both method and materials that are far more recent and post date the period to which the regiment was actually extant, it is awful, if offered to you as original, my thoughts would be to seek a refund.

Originally Posted by jfenzy1

Hi all,
I would welcome comments on these 2 badges please.

[Luke H]

Is it solder? Looks like yellow braze to my eyes but I confess with a 3 week old I’m not sleeping much lately.

[Frank Kelley]

You do encounter original examples that have been deliberately strengthened with various wire really quite frequently they not particularly unusual.

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

I am never keen on 9th Lancers badges with copper wire soldered on the reverse, others may disagree.

Rob

[Sonofacqms]

As I said others may disagree . . !

I recall Laurie Archer mentioned this I think in his notes on Cavalry fakes, but I may be wrong.

Rob

[Frank Kelley]

Do you think this badge is a fake?

[Sonofacqms]

Frank, as to whether the badge is an original or otherwise I cannot say, there are few pointers on 9th Lancer badges to be certain of an original, but looking at the braze on the angled pic it looks very recent to me.

Bearing in mind that the 9th and 12th lancers were amalgamated nearly sixty years ago I would not have expected to see fresh looking brazed reinforcing rods on an original badge worn by a serving member of this Regiment.

Of course it could have been done by a collector to reinforce it for the purpose of storing on card, these badges are very prone to breaking as well I know, but after years of collecting I regard these with suspicion.

Rob

[cbuehler]

I have a Delhi Spearmen badge with the rods as well, but said rods extend almost all the way to the points and hilt of the lances, which they are intended to reinforce.
The badge shown here does not, which does not make sense as that was the presumably the intent?

CB

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Bearing in mind that the 9th and 12th lancers were amalgamated nearly sixty years ago I would not have expected to see fresh looking brazed reinforcing rods on an original badge worn by a serving member of this Regiment.

Of course it could have been done by a collector to reinforce it for the purpose of storing on card, these badges are very prone to breaking as well I know, but after years of collecting I regard these with suspicion.

Rob

I don’t think braze colour here is the issue. Patina and tarnish to brazing spill, just like the rest of the badge, will wholly depend on its storage conditions.

I’ve several badges, some over a hundred years old, that are in mint condition and practically ‘new’ looking, braze and all. No doubt they’ve been stored in a dry environment, probably frames, their whole lives.

Also, I thought you said it was solder i.e. dark/lead colour? I can see darker areas of spill but also lighter ones which look like yellow braze.

[Sonofacqms]

Luke, yes, I said solder which could be lead or silver solder as a general term, sorry if I have caused any confusion.

Rob

[Frank Kelley]

I think that I have seen a number of original examples with wire placed upon the shaft that extends to the area just above the pennon, which is a notable weak spot, but, I have seen others that extend a little further too.
Equally, I've seen plenty of original badges without any added wire.

Originally Posted by cbuehler

I have a Delhi Spearmen badge with the rods as well, but said rods extend almost all the way to the points and hilt of the lances, which they are intended to reinforce.
The badge shown here does not, which does not make sense as that was the presumably the intent?

CB

[Luke H]

Having looked at it today with fresh eyes I now have concerns.

The badge actually appears to be from the same die as the Martin Marsh repro albeit the reverse detail especially of the scroll is the best I’ve seen by far as is the finesse of the jewels in the crown.

I’ve attached a couple more stereotypical examples from this die for comparison exhibiting the traits mentioned. Note the diagonal line of seeding from the left scroll tail and also the line of seeding above the S which looks almost like an apostrophe, so clearly all badges are from the same die.

The slider on the badge also isn’t typical of fakes, or at least has been altered to appear so. The square end of the shank and plier marks plus miscellaneous dings is quite convincing of age. Alternatively a better or perhaps original slider has been attached to it.

I would be very interested to see if the reinforcing is brazed or soldered as even the late great Dave C didn’t use this due to the heat involved and risk of melting the badge.

It perhaps raises the question as to if this is potentially a ‘restrike’ rather than a fake. Albeit the number of latter reproductions from this die are so prevalent they cast a long shadow of doubt to the extent I would not trust a badge from it.

Someone has clearly gone to a lot of trouble with this badge considering it’s perhaps worth £25-28 on a dealer’s list.

[Frank Kelley]

Many congratulations, wonderful news, though, doubtless in the short term, considerably more work and responsibility, as well as rather less time for other things, badge collecting, for example.
Never mind, far better than any badge that can simply be bought and at any time.

Originally Posted by Luke H

Is it solder? Looks like yellow braze to my eyes but I confess with a 3 week old I’m not sleeping much lately.