How Badged?

[Jelly Terror]

On the outbreak of war, Jeffrey Russell Bavington Jones joined an officer cadet training unit, and was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Lincolnshire Regiment, on the 20th of April 1940.

In July 1940 he was attached to the 16th Battalion Durham Light Infantry, on its formation. He was promoted to Captain in 1943, and was second in command of B Company.

Can anyone tell me if Captain Jones would have been badged to the Lincolnshire Regiment, or to the DLI, after being attached to the DLI, please?

With thanks.

[oc14]

My assumption would be that he would be badged Lincolnshire Regiment (as that is the regiment into which he was commissioned)

PL

[Jelly Terror]

Thanks Paul.

[Toby Purcell]

If the attachment is temporary to just cover a short gap then parent cap badge is retained. But if posted formally to a battalion on attachment and taking up a command appointment it was normal to wear the cap badge of the unit to which attached. I saw several cases of this during my own infantry service but also when researching individual officers, via photographic visual evidence too. One officer I recall was in the Royal Irish Regiment, but was KIA while badged Leinster Regiment.
In the case you’ve outlined I’m confident that Jones would have worn the cap badge of the DLI battalion that he’d been with since its formation. This wasn’t a pro tem arrangement and it was important for an OC to identify closely with his men.

[Alan O]

most likely DLI as said.

[Jelly Terror]

Many thanks.

[Frank Kelley]

Quite frankly, I think a dated portrait would be required to answer that question.

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

On the outbreak of war, Jeffrey Russell Bavington Jones joined an officer cadet training unit, and was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Lincolnshire Regiment, on the 20th of April 1940.

In July 1940 he was attached to the 16th Battalion Durham Light Infantry, on its formation. He was promoted to Captain in 1943, and was second in command of B Company.

Can anyone tell me if Captain Jones would have been badged to the Lincolnshire Regiment, or to the DLI, after being attached to the DLI, please?

With thanks.

[Toby Purcell]

Just to be clear the protocol was and remains that without a formal transfer an officer remains on the roll of officers of his parent regiment, but while undergoing a temporary but longer term attachment to another regiment he wears the cap badge of that regiment. This is a long standing arrangement and it applied in both world wars, and subsequently. There are numerous cases in WW1 in particular where officers of a particular regiment were attached to another as the commanding officer. In all cases that I’ve researched the cap badge worn was that of the unit to which attached.

[Hawthorn]

Toby,

To your knowledge is there a formal time period laid down as to how long an attachment would be for an Officer to wear the Badge of the Regiment he is attached to. I only ask because when serving with The Coldstream Guards on a South Armagh tour we had a Captain from the 17/21st Lancers attached to us, apparently following a misdemeanor involving his tank and German civilians in BAOR. He remained with the Battalion for some time after the tour and always wore his own Regimental Motto and uniform distinctions.

Simon.

[Luke H]

What I think Frank is driving at is would this not come down to local and wartime
conditions?

I completely agree and accept what you’re saying Toby in terms of the official protocols.

Implementation of this change I imagine would be dependant on its enforcement by his new CO and also access to badges/accoutrements considering where he was in the country or world at the time, would it not?

As Frank says a portrait would be needed. We know what should have been worn but whether it was or not is another question.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Hawthorn

Toby,

To your knowledge is there a formal time period laid down as to how long an attachment would be for an Officer to wear the Badge of the Regiment he is attached to. I only ask because when serving with The Coldstream Guards on a South Armagh tour we had a Captain from the 17/21st Lancers attached to us, apparently following a misdemeanor involving his tank and German civilians in BAOR. He remained with the Battalion for some time after the tour and always wore his own Regimental Motto and uniform distinctions.

Simon.

Simon I know exactly what you mean, I served at a similar time and had a platoon commander from the Intelligence Corps who retained his cap badge throughout. He was with the battalion during pre-tour training and stayed for a short time afterwards. At that time there was an official programme for non-infantry to be attached to infantry battalions to gain experience of commanding soldiers on operations in a way that their own corps could not offer. They returned to their parent regiments subsequently. This also suited the infantry as it enabled them to release their own officers on key career courses.
At the same time there were also officers from other regiments who were usually attached for a 2-year tour to make up shortfalls in the regiment’s own established roll of officers. They usually came from the same infantry division. Again this was an official scheme used as and when necessary. In my case one came from the RRW and one from the Queen’s Regiment. Both wore the cap badge of the regiment that they were serving with, but wore their parent mess dress, which is how it was first noticed by the soldiery that they came from another regiment (whereupon the ‘rejects’ jibing began). There was nothing new about any of these protocols, that had existed since WW1 at least.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Luke H

What I think Frank is driving at is would this not come down to local and wartime
conditions?

I completely agree and accept what you’re saying Toby in terms of the official protocols.

Implementation of this change I imagine would be dependant on its enforcement by his new CO and also access to badges/accoutrements considering where he was in the country or world at the time, would it not?

As Frank says a portrait would be needed. We know what should have been worn but whether it was or not is another question.

I agree that the photo would be the ultimate proof, Luke. What I’m trying to convey is that these situations were common and generally related to one of two scenarios.
Where a battalion had been decimated during the two World wars (which happened in both, but was more common in WW1), it was invariably the case that the officers received a disproportionate number of the casualties and in such cases the brigade, or sometimes division would send any officers transiting through the IBDs, or that could be spared by another battalion just to provide sufficient officers for the denuded battalion to function. These officers stayed just briefly until the battalion could be reconstituted via drafts (that generally included officers) from its own regiment. In these pro tem circumstances the attached officers retained their parent cap badges.
The second scenario is where a new unit is being formed, or an attachment required for a substantial period, especially but not exclusively if the officer is being attached to fulfil a command role. In such circumstances the officer would generally wear the cap badge of the regiment to which he was attached. In some cases he might serve two or three years before returning to his parent regiment (in numerous cases not until after the war and a return to peacetime soldiering). In other cases the officer became so attached to the regiment he was attached to that he applied to transfer formally and permanently. In such cases if he was well liked and approval was granted by the regiment’s colonel (pater familias) then the transfer was acceded to. In a great many other cases he was promoted to full Colonel and above and so left all regimental duty behind anyway, no doubt retaining affection for all the regiments with which he’d served.
My knowledge of this is based on three strands, my own service as an infantry soldier (18yrs), subsequent service as a commissioned officer (19yrs) in several arms and on the staff that required me to become familiar with regulations and routine protocols, and around 50-years of reading of military biographies.

[Hawthorn]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Simon I know exactly what you mean, I served at a similar time and had a platoon commander from the Intelligence Corps who retained his cap badge throughout. He was with the battalion during pre-tour training and stayed for a short time afterwards. At that time there was an official programme for non-infantry to be attached to infantry battalions to gain experience of commanding soldiers on operations in a way that their own corps could not offer. They returned to their parent regiments subsequently. This also suited the infantry as it enabled them to release their own officers on key career courses.
At the same time there were also officers from other regiments who were usually attached for a 2-year tour to make up shortfalls in the regiment’s own established roll of officers. They usually came from the same infantry division. Again this was an official scheme used as and when necessary. In my case one came from the RRW and one from the Queen’s Regiment. Both wore the cap badge of the regiment that they were serving with, but wore their parent mess dress, which is how it was first noticed by the soldiery that they came from another regiment (whereupon the ‘rejects’ jibing began). There was nothing new about any of these protocols, that had existed since WW1 at least.

Thanks Toby,

Obviously a more common occurrence than at first thought. Remember the Captain from the Lancers was well liked and took everything in good humour.

Simon.

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Simon I know exactly what you mean, I served at a similar time and had a platoon commander from the Intelligence Corps who retained his cap badge throughout. He was with the battalion during pre-tour training and stayed for a short time afterwards. At that time there was an official programme for non-infantry to be attached to infantry battalions to gain experience of commanding soldiers on operations in a way that their own corps could not offer. They returned to their parent regiments subsequently. This also suited the infantry as it enabled them to release their own officers on key career courses.
At the same time there were also officers from other regiments who were usually attached for a 2-year tour to make up shortfalls in the regiment’s own established roll of officers. They usually came from the same infantry division. Again this was an official scheme used as and when necessary. In my case one came from the RRW and one from the Queen’s Regiment. Both wore the cap badge of the regiment that they were serving with, but wore their parent mess dress, which is how it was first noticed by the soldiery that they came from another regiment (whereupon the ‘rejects’ jibing began). There was nothing new about any of these protocols, that had existed since WW1 at least.

My Platoon Commander for 12 months of a NI tour in the early 1970's was an Intelligence Corps subaltern who remained badged to the Int Corps, as did another Int Corps subaltern who served as a Platoon Commander in UK & Kenya a year or so later.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

My Platoon Commander for 12 months of a NI tour in the early 1970's was an Intelligence Corps subaltern who remained badged to the Int Corps, as did another Int Corps subaltern who served as a Platoon Commander in UK & Kenya a year or so later.

Yes, the Intelligence Corps, Royal Armoured Corps and Royal Army Ordnance Corps were among the more common corps to take up the opportunity for their junior officers to gain useful operational experience.