more thoughts on Guards' full dress badges

[Mike_2817]

Its all to do with the United Nations Protocol on the use of Children and 'Boy Soldiers' in Armed Conflict.

The term 'Junior Soldier' replaced that of 'Junior Leader' and 'Apprentice Tradesmen' around 1995 becouse there are no longer Junior Leader Regements.
The historic term was in fact 'Boy Soldier'

You can remain an Army Cadet till the age of 18 and 9 months, and the term exists to differentiate Army Cadets from Regular Soldiers, but if you join the army you become a 'Junior Soldier' during training if under 18½

[Of course you do not need to join the ACF to join the Army - They are two differant things - But the term exists]

The Army Foundation College at Harrogate only takes 'Junior Soldiers' between the age of 16 & 17 years and one month on a 42 week course [which takes 52 weeks with breaks], which is shorter than the old Junior Leaders Course, becouse the go directly onto Phase Two Training along with 'Adult' Entries]

ATR Winchester is also a centre for training of Junior Entry recruits.

You can be posted to a unit at under 18½ and you become a Private (or whatever) but still cannot deploy on Active Service till you are 18.

however by the time they have completed Phase Two Training they over 18 anyway.

[It may be the age has been dropped from 18½ to 18 but I cannot find a referance to it]

[davec2]

Cheers Mike,

Times change I suppose, along with everything Military too !!

Dave.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Another extract to prove the point:



As an another aside, I have the Electronic Version of the 1975 Queens Regulations (in MS Word Format) which is about 3.5MBs - PM me if you would like a copy.

PM sent, thank you very much

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Another extract to prove the point:



As an another aside, I have the Electronic Version of the 1975 Queens Regulations (in MS Word Format) which is about 3.5MBs - PM me if you would like a copy.

Mike,
thanks for your reply, however it is based on ignorance and not experience. Corporal is purely an administrative term and bands representative ranks. Your understanding of appointments and ranks is flawed and I am very disappointed that you cannot understand my point. The Household Cavalry do not have Sergeants for example and their rank (not appointment) structure is based on Corporals and has done for hundreds of years. Your attitude is desrespectful to the Regiments who do not comply with the "Norm", It is not just the Guards that have their own terms for ranks, some Cavalry Regiments and corps for example also have their own exceptions! I could be just as petty and say that as far as I am concerned a Conductor collects tickets on a bus or waves a baton in front of an orchestra, but out of respect and experience I appreciate that a Conductor in the RAOC/RLC is a very senior appointment even if he is only a chief storeman, hope you get my point on this!! To call a Lance Sergeant in the Guards "only a corporal" is the hight of ignorance and I would never dream of refering to a Bombardier, Lance Corporal of Horse or any other rank outside of my own Regimental system in anything other than the correct manner of address. The British Army has, does and always will be better than the rest because of these distinctions they are a term of pride which those individuals base there ethos on (and have done so for hundreds of years). Until the end of the First World War, the Guards had private soldiers, it was a distinction bestowed upon them that they had the right to be called Guardsmen (many of whom had died in order for that honour to be bestowed). In one Regiment or Corps a Private may be called such, but to a Fusilier, Gunner, Trooper, Kingsman, Rifleman, Guardsman or any other term, if you were to say in the NAAFI "well really you are a private" you would probably leave very quickly and not of your own accord and most likely not via a door either! What you are saying is, for example, is a Trooper or Guardsman, who was killed in action and had Private on his headstone should be happy with that, because really he was only a private???? Yes you have offended me and every other service person who does not comply with your ignorant interpretation of our complicated rank stucture!

Andy

[Mike_2817]

Andy it is you who is barking up the wrong tree - Try and look beyond your nose. It seems to me you do not like to be wrong, where I will admit that I am sometimes.
I take it you are an ex-Guardsman?

RANKS and APPOINTMENTS are two differant things. You seem to think otherwise, but it is all a play on words, and all boils down to TRADITION

Of course a 'Lance Sergeant' is just that, same as I was a 'Staff Sergeant Major' (SSM) and not a 'Regimental Sergent Major' (RSM) but we were both Warrant Officer Class One. I could in theory be appointed as RSM or indeed Conductor but never as Academy Sergeant Major as that was a guards post or indeed as Master Gunner as I was not in the RA. Same as all Guards Corporals are appointed 'Lance Sargeant' [as stated in QR's] but it does not change their rank which remains the same.

I am not ignorant of how the British Army works, and I am offended that you think otherwise, and would always use a persons correct appointment whatever the circumstances. I served for 27 years and know to well what Regimental Tradition and Pride is. But facts stay as they are, It is an Appointment, same as is Conductor RAOC/RLC which can be any trade WO1 SSM since 1993 within the RLC. and yes the same applies, he is still a WO1 which is in fact almost never used without an Appointment. (but that other word - SENIORITY comes into play)

However this is a forum about Badges and not Protocol so I will leave it at that.

[grumpy]

and, as a mere ex-MoD scientist [with a dormant RAFVR commission over several tours in Cyprus and BFG], I profess neutrality, and should add that I have learned from the above and am grateful.

[colin 17]

I just happen to know the Canadian WO/CSM in the picture. He is actualy in the R22R "Van Doo's" who was tasked to the Ceremonial Guard for the summer. Everyone gets stuck in the uniform no matter what regiment they come from.

[grumpy]

I have just had a nice onversation with an ex-GG LSgt of some 20 years ago.

He told me that some tunic 'trade' badges were indeed 'on scarlet', and that a GPMG in wreath badge existed.

Comment please?

[Mike_2817]

I was talking to a retired RAOC WO1 Conductor who was DOWO London District in the mid 1960's and he told me that such Scarlet Proficiency & Trade badges were 'Regimental Purchase' and not available via the supply chain. Parachute Wings, Light Bulbs & SAS Wings were authorised to be worn on a Navy Blue Backing. Only Guardsman & Lance Corporals could wear other proficiency & trade badges [In the rest of the army these badges could be worn up to and including corporals] and he thinks the practise ceased around the late 80's but is not sure.

'G' Squadron, 22 SAS (which was at first mainly personnel from the disbanding Guards Independent Parachute Company) is I beleave still primarily made up of volunteers from the Household Division, so seeing SAS Wings on some Guardsman is not that unusual.

Also there was and again I think still is a Guards Parachute Company attached to 3 Para, who wear/wore a Maroon Beret with Guards Div Badge Backing.

Perhaps someone could confirm?

[Alan O]

Yes there is. They do indeed wear the blue red blue backing with the para regt badge.

[2747andy]

Mike,
Guards Para now Platoon strength!

Andy

[Mike_2817]

I have never seen such badges listed in COSA so I presume they were 'Local Purchase'

Anyone care to confirm?

Issue Bullion Proficiency & Trade Badges do exist on Dark Blue backing for wear on No1 Dress so I can see how these get used on Scarlet 'Full Dress'

I do see 'Skill at Arms' Badges being worn by Guardsmen at ITC Catterick, so the custom still continues on No2 Dress at least. and on some Rank Slides with CS95 as well!

[2747andy]

Guards still wear Proficiency badges on no2 Dress, not on Combat 95 rank slides however, if worn these are unofficial and private purchase. Warrant officers however do not wear Prof badges!

Andy

[grumpy]

Thanks to all.

I have [fingers crossed] asked Guards Museum for comment although past experience is not encouraging.

Will report back if I get anywhere further.

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Guards still wear Proficiency badges on no2 Dress, not on Combat 95 rank slides however, if worn these are unofficial and private purchase. Warrant officers however do not wear Prof badges!

Andy

I think all such add-ons to rank slides are unoffical no matter what regiment Andy. I think other regiments seem to turn a blind eye to Crossed Rifles (Skill at Arms Instructor), Crossed Swords (PTI) or Crossed Flags (Signaler)

In fact other than the standard Woodland & Desert Rank Slides all 'Regimental Style' Slides are Regimental or Private Purchase.
[Not sure if the Guards Officers Stars are issue or not? I will have a look later in JSP768 illustrated Defence Clothing Catalogue CD-ROM]

Only such badges worn by Senior Ranks & Warrant Officers on any form of dress are those 'Awarded in Perpetuity' such as Parachute Wings as listed in JSP336 MATERIEL REGULATIONS FOR THE ARMY.

JSP336 lists such badges as

Section 3 Badges of Appointment and Qualification

Annex A Advanced Skill At Arms and Instructors Badges
Annex B Skill At Arms Badges
Annex C Employment Badges

I have also managed to find a reference to 'Full Dress' which would appear to be the approved list of such badges 'Special to the Guards Division' in Clothing Catalogues.

JSP 336 3rd EDITION

VOLUME 12

PART 3 – CLOTHING

PAMPHLET 12 – FULL DRESS

CONTENTS

Section 3 FULL DRESS SCALES

Annex C Guards Division – Full Dress

SCALE 3 - FULL DRESS, THE GUARDS DIVISION, SOLDIERS

Badge, arm
Colour, gold, blue, large, Worn on tunic by WOs 2, CSgts and CQMSs.

Crown in wreath, gold, blue, Worn by RQMS.

Crown, worsted, scarlet, blue, Worn on greatcoat by WOs 2, CSgts, Sgts and CQMSs.

Drum, gold, blue, large, Drum majors.

Drum, worsted, scarlet, blue, Worn on blue grey greatcoat by drum majors.

Grenade, gold, blue, Pnr Sgts, GREN GDS.

Grenade, worsted, Worn on tunic by pnrs, GREN GDS.

Hatchets, crossed, gold, blue, Pnr Sgts, Guards Division.

Hatchets, crossed, worsted, Pnrs, Guards Division.

Leek, gold, blue, Pnr Sgts, WG.

Leek, worsted, Pnr Sgts, WG.

Rose, gold and silver on blue, Pnr Sgts, COLDM GDS.

Rose, worsted, Pnrs, COLDM GDS.

Royal Arms, gold, scarlet, large, Worn on tunic by RSMs of bns; GSM London District.

Royal Arms, worsted, scarlet, blue, Worn on greatcoat, as for immediately preceding article.

Star, gold and silver, blue, Pnr Sgts, SG and IG.

Star, worsted, Pnr, SG and IG

.....................................

From the above it seems badges on Blue is acceptable?