Any info on Anzac "A" badges

[MartinRF]

...a few images of AIF personnel wearing distinctive insignia...the (instructor) Officer is wearing the Bombers two-colour badge in cloth - the ball is lighter in colour than the flames, as is that worn by the soldier seated two to his left...the PT/BT (instructor?) Sergeant is wearing a multi-threaded badge in cloth above his stripes - the hilts are darker in colour than the blades...the machine-gun Sergeant, wearing an MSM, seems to have a pair of oxidised-metal crossed guns above his stripes and on the left shoulder - the yellow centre of the 4th Division patch shows up as being white in colour in these sepia photographs so the machine guns, if they are in cloth, would show to be the same...two of the Australian Officer cadet candidates are wearing the large oval "Best Shot in the Company/Regiment" skill-at-arms cloth badge - no way of telling if it is a crown or a star above the wreath...the reason that I collect nearly any British ORs skill/trade/appointment/proficiency/prize insignia (both in gilding metal and in worsted cloth) is that I may eventually come across a photograph of an Australian wearing it - however unofficial/unauthorised the item may be...(8{
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[fairlie63]

Hi Martin,

The grenade might also be the mid blue flame on purplish ball commonly worn by trench mortar gunners of the AIF. Interesting photo. I can't identify the colour patch but the officer appears to be wearing a very short straight AUSTRALIA title and some of those fellows don't appear to be wearing Australia titles at all. Do you have a larger shot, particularly one that shows the colour patch?

The sergeant is 24 Aust MG Coy prior to early 1918, hence the white centre to his colour patch. The yellow tends to show up dark in early photos so the crossed guns are probably cloth.

The officer cadets are most likely artillery and are wearing the gun in wreath with crown above and the word CADET.

In your photo of the AIF metal proficiency/trade badges you have two of the large Australian crossed guns, one with a crown above. They were not worn in the AIF. The crossed guns in gilding metal were for Permanent Military Forces personnel who had qualified at a gunnery staff course and did not appear in Price Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries (PVCN) until 1925-26. Copper oxidised badges were produced as a batch in 1927, possibly for a heavy battery competition that was inaugurated that year but there is no evidence they were ever issued and they did not appear in PVCN.

Crossed guns and crown in gilding metal first appear in PVCN 1919-20 as Badge, Skill-at-arms, Batteries and Companies, Artillery, but they were never produced or issued. The skill badge itself ceased to be competed for, Classification it was known as, during the war, and there were huge stocks of worsted cloth guns and crown ordered in 1915 in what I think must be an error.

I think I must have talked to you about those in another thread.

Regards,
Keith

[MartinRF]

TrenchMortar_0020.jpg
...here is the full postcard...about the copper oxidised artillery badges made in 1927, was it common practice for the PMF to subdue their insignia out of wartime?...(8{

[fairlie63]

Not at all. Between 1918 and 1930 the CMF wore oxidised badges. The PMF wore gilding metal/brass.

[MartinRF]

...was that just for those particular artillery badges - the oxidising of copper badges?...the 1921 AMF Standing Orders for Clothing, Part II., Citizens Forces and Senior Cadets states 'gilding metal' for metal insignia...(8{

[MartinRF]

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...ahhhhh, reading further in to the various AMF orders, the 1922 Standing Orders for Clothing details the metal badges for wear by Citizen Forces - Officers had gilding metal and the Other Ranks had oxidised copper...(8{

[fairlie63]

A list of copper oxidised badges for the AIF from a quick glance through the Commonwealth of Australia Gazette.

Contracts for these were accepted between October 1914 and February 1916:
Crown, Warrant Officers
Crown, Officers
Star, Officers
Star, QMS
Crown and gun
Gun
Bugle
Wheel
Hatchets Crossed
Bit
Flags crossed
Grenade
Hammer and pincers
Shoe
Trumpets crossed

[fairlie63]

Hard to tell whether your photo is 2 Aust Pioneer Bn or II. ANZAC Cyclist Bn.

In either of these cases it would be the bombers badge and not the trench mortar badge.

[badgecollector]

hin guys,
great discussion. thanks
what are the thoughts on this item?
which version is this and would it have been worn by australians?
thanks
bc

[fromelles]

Originally Posted by badgecollector

hin guys,
great discussion. thanks
what are the thoughts on this item?
which version is this and would it have been worn by australians?
thanks
bc

The all scarlet badge replaced the khaki with red flames badge vide AIF Order 897 (5 Oct 17), however old stocks were to be used up before the new badge was issued.

I believe MartinRF has also provided a scan of the above order within this thread

Dan

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by fromelles

I believe MartinRF has also provided a scan of the above order within this thread

Dan

Here is the link :

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...6&d=1626705040

.

[badgecollector]

thanks Dan & Mike
great info.
thanks
bc

[MartinRF]

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...have managed to secure two of the last few requirements to complete my set of worsted trade/qualification/skill-arms-arms badges...(8{

[fromelles]

Originally Posted by MartinRF

...however, it should be noted that the AIF was not merely an overseas copy of the domestic AMF...(8{

The AIF was basically raised on the AMF model, war establishments were published in 1912 and were adhered to until amended as required. Trade, proficiency and rank badges were all brought across from the AMF, and again, as things were introduced or changed they were promulgated in AIF Orders, Military Orders etc.

The attached is from Price List of Clothing 1918-19, issued with MO 289/18. I've included the pages that reference the RAA scroll (both hat and collar). What can be observed is that many badges were made with copper oxidised, brass and gilding finishes, and so adding another layer of confusion when attempting to date a badge by its finish.

Dan