Pagri badges

[Toby Purcell]

And here is an South African 'Horse' Helmet with rosette and title.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

And here is an South African 'Horse' Helmet with rosette and title.

Cavalry pattern Pith helmet (also known as the "10th Hussar" pattern). The extended back to the helmet also offered some protection to a blow to the back of the neck. The above example belongs to the "Paget's Horse".

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Cavalry pattern Pith helmet (also known as the "10th Hussar" pattern). The extended back to the helmet also offered some protection to a blow to the back of the neck. The above example belongs to the "Paget's Horse".

And here is a an example worn on the Imperial Yeomanry FSH. Rosettes seem to have been popular for some reason.

[iaindh]

Hi all,
I've been following this thread and it has been very interesting.
If I were now to do an analysis, I would say yes, a lot of the time cloth badges were worn, and there is some excellent photographs guys, but there is also plenty of evidence that metal badges were also worn.
But to fixing of metal badges? Surely lugs would have been too short so not practical unless fastened to the Pagri. (This could also be why there are a lot of badges around with pins adaptions.)
But if I were a soldier of those times and wished to fix a metal badge to a FSH or similar, the slider would have been the answer; I would make a hole through the cork, straighten out the slider, push it through and then fold the slider flat but that would make it a helmet badge rather than a Pagri badge.
Maybe I'm stating the obvious and I await the flak!
Iain

PS, Dave I'm sure all of your Scottish badges would have had long enough sliders and I'm sure there was no hard & fast length.

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi all,
I've been following this thread and it has been very interesting.
If I were now to do an analysis, I would say yes, a lot of the time cloth badges were worn, and there is some excellent photographs guys, but there is also plenty of evidence that metal badges were also worn.
But to fixing of metal badges? Surely lugs would have been too short so not practical unless fastened to the Pagri. (This could also be why there are a lot of badges around with pins adaptions.)
But if I were a soldier of those times and wished to fix a metal badge to a FSH or similar, the slider would have been the answer; I would make a hole through the cork, straighten out the slider, push it through and then fold the slider flat but that would make it a helmet badge rather than a Pagri badge.
Maybe I'm stating the obvious and I await the flak!
Iain

PS, Dave I'm sure all of your Scottish badges would have had long enough sliders and I'm sure there was no hard & fast length.

While this all has merit of course, I am of the opinion that metal badges were not meant to attached to the FSH by piercing it in anyway and it is likely that the Army probably took a dim view to this practice as it damages the helmet. Further, every time the badge is removed for polishing, the hole or holes would wear and grow in size.
The pagri itself was what the badge should have been affixed to and a pin backing would be the most satisfactory method as lugs would not work at all (how would the split pin be affixed without pulling the folds way out?) and a slider would present a very unsatisfactory solution as again the pagri would quickly become pulled and torn at the point of attachment and the badge would be rather loose and fall off easily. At least the pagri can be replaced.
So, I am of the opinion that metal badges were likely found to be unsatisfactory as device for the helmet hence cloth badges became the norm.
I still dont trust those studio portraits very much.

CB

[John Mulcahy]

I too find the insignia worn on the FSH very interesting and it has potential for plenty of research. It appears to me that compared to home service dress regiments seemed to have more freedom on what to wear and where/how to wear it on the FSH.

I agree cloth insignia is more common. However I see a lot of metal insignias also in wear possibly as much as a quarter of the time.

Further I am convinced some regiments pierced their helmets both from studying publications such as.”The Wolseley Helmet in Pictures from Omdurman to El Alamein” by Bates & Suciu and from the following

at a recent visit to the NA I found WO359 page 78 ACD/S. Lancs/437 dated 12/8/1902. Titled “Badges Helmets in India method of Fixing”

“I am directed by the secretary of state for war to inform you that new badges as fixed in India by a long shank as on pattn, enclosed have been approved for wear at colonial stations upon the Indian pattern helmet and the service dress hat. This method of fastening the badge will prevent the perforation of the helmet and will allow units interchangeability between the Imperial and Indian ? and instructions to this effect will be given to troops at colonial stations accordingly”

The ? being a handwritten word I have not yet deciphered.

Thus the RACD appear to have recognized by inference that helmet piercing occurred and the introduction of the vertical shank was meant to help avoid this. Instructions on the approval of the Wolseley pattern helmet confirm the badges to be the same as the Indian Pattern Helmet.

John

[Charlie585]

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[cbuehler]

Actually, I am aware that badges were sometimes affixed by piercing the helmet (more common to see in the late 19th or very early 20th cent.) which is why the Army tried to do something to stop this.
I think that further research will likely show that the early remedy of using sliders also ultimately proved unsatisfactory.
I do note that metal badges on FSH become far more rarely seen as time progressed and that an order to the effect that metal badges were to cease altogether was issued at some time around the ww1 era, if my old memory serves me correctly.
All in all, this is probably a subject that will prove to be inconclusive at best!


CB

[John Mulcahy]

CB & Ry

You are two of my most respected members of this forum and your responses are fully valid.

I went to Kew a few weeks ago to try to fill some gaps in the history of the insignia of The Royal Munster Fusiliers, a regiment for whom I have a particular interest.

I was fortunate to have time with Julian with whom I have corresponded for quite a while, I have a large amount of notes and photos of documents to digest and of course after any holiday my day time job has piled up.

Of course the descriptor "long" shank is relative but Julian and I found many references to badges for FSH & service cap , I want to send those photos to Julian for his opinion before I "publish" anything stupid!

Interestingly I saw a note that Smith & Wright made lead impressions of fusilier badges possibly for the Fusilier regiment FSH badges that might both explain and provide the maker for my lovely Royal Dublin Fusilier "Pagri" in Alan's FSH album and the absence of the Munsters from this list. Initially Fusilier regiments were not called out specifically but regiments without a HPC were, tellingly a few moths later S&W are submitting lead impressions of certain fusilier regiment glengarry grenade badges to the RACD. My daughter & I surfed the Atlantic not far from the depot of the Royal Munster Fusiliers making it a truly relaxing holiday, then we came home, went to work and the rexalation ended...

more to come I am sure, in my opinion a subject as worthy of interest as cavalry arm badges and WW1 economy issues.

[Charlie585]

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[iaindh]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

While this all has merit of course, I am of the opinion that metal badges were not meant to attached to the FSH by piercing it in anyway and it is likely that the Army probably took a dim view to this practice as it damages the helmet. Further, every time the badge is removed for polishing, the hole or holes would wear and grow in size.
The pagri itself was what the badge should have been affixed to and a pin backing would be the most satisfactory method as lugs would not work at all (how would the split pin be affixed without pulling the folds way out?) and a slider would present a very unsatisfactory solution as again the pagri would quickly become pulled and torn at the point of attachment and the badge would be rather loose and fall off easily. At least the pagri can be replaced.
So, I am of the opinion that metal badges were likely found to be unsatisfactory as device for the helmet hence cloth badges became the norm.
I still dont trust those studio portraits very much.

CB

A point I actually forgot to mention is that I wouldn't trust a slider albeit long, pushed under the Pagri folds as I consider the badge would quickly become prone to falling out. From the progressive chain it isn't surprising that cloth insignia was introduced.

Iain

[Graham Stewart]

RMA.jpg
RMA 2.jpg
Now to throw the promised spanner in the works. I've had this badge in the old spares box for more years than I care to remember and in my opinion this is a "true" pagri badge, as the pin would sit neatly behind the folds of the pagri without causing damage to either the helmet or pagri folds, thus allowing the grenade to sit neatly within the 'V' of the folds.

The pin is not an addition and is a work of art in itself, strengthening the grenade from top to bottom. Although it appears brass, it was at one time silver plated, which leaves me guessing as to the unit. I did think RMA, but am not so sure and believe, it could actually belong to an Indian unit and was possibly an officers badge due to the quality striking.

However I could be totally incorrect and it may be for a turbanned Indian unit. Any additional thoughts gents???

[Charlie585]

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[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Charlie585

Hi Graham,

The attachment doesn't seem to work.

Ry

RMA.jpg RMA 2.jpg
Gremlins at work here?. Lets hope this works as they were scannered.

[cbuehler]

I too cannot see the pictures. When it comes to Indian Army Officer badges, all bets are off! They had some of the most unconventional fixtures going.

CB