Second Battalion badges

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi all. Following on from my previous thread "where there's brass.." mention was made of Second Battalion badges produced during the period of traumatic changes of the Cardwell Reforms of 1881. These drastic reforms of the British Army were not brought about without a great deal of pain and "soul searching" in every aspect of their implementation, which naturally enough included the adoption of the new badges to be worn by the newly combined regiments. A few instances may suffice to show the various problems encountered, viz ;
(1) The newly formed Seaforth Highlanders comprising the late 72nd & 78th Foot, were suprisingly forced to adopt the former headdress badge of their Second Battalion...presumably much to the annoyance of the First Battalion !
(2) The combination of the 75th & 92nd Foot to form the Gordon Highlanders was another unpopular move. The 92nd, a proud Highland Regiment, being "demoted" as they saw it, to a mere Second Battalion while the First Battalion usurped their title !
(3) After 1881, the 99th Foot was joined with the 62nd "Wiltshire" Regiment as their Second Battalion, but the merger was not a logical or happy one at first. The 99th jealously retained their diced border until 1887, and the 62nd applied to be allowed to wear a separate badge so that their hard won Peninsular battle honours should not be shared by the 2nd Battalion who had none. This request was (quite rightly) refused.
...and so on. Thus it seems clear that former loyalties and traditions on both sides were sometimes stretched to the limit and continued to be so for many years after 1881.
Attached are two examples of 2nd Battalion badges, possibly never worn, (the D of W may even be a re-strike but not a fake) that aptly illustrate the vain attempts to preserve their separate identity. Could I ask, do any other members have any more examples of specially struck 2nd Battn badges of this era that they care to share ? Jeff
2 Bn D of W Regt.jpg 2 Bn Offs Dorset.jpg

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi again. Here's another I forgot to include earlier :
On amalgamation with the 26th Foot in 1881, the 90th did not like being called "the 2nd Cameronians" and preferred the title "Scottish Rifles". Hence this cap badge worn by the 2nd Battn from 1882 to 1900. According to Bloomer, it comes with lugs or sliders and was in white-metal. The 1st Battn of course wore the familiar Douglas Mullet star and thistle wreath in white-metal. Sorry, I don't know what the Militia and Volunteer Battns wore. Jeff
Scottish Rifles.jpg
PS: See "The Scottish Rifles" Web site on www.cameronians.org

[Viletone]

I beleive the 2nd Battn Hampshire wore a similar but slightly different version of the large g/m pagri with the flat top QVC.

I have a pair of 2nd Btn Border regiment titles which are straight rather than curved.

[John Mulcahy]

The Sprig of Shilleagh Autumn 1945 makes reference to a glengarry badge specific to the 2nd Bn The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers in use as late as 1900, there is no indication of a commencement of wear date.

A line drawing of this badge (in the regimental museum at that time) was included in the article. No mention of materials of construction.

Attached is a scan of the image. This is the only time I have seen reference to such an item.

John

[Alex Rice]

Hi All
It seems strange that the 2nd Inniskillings badge is shown with a KC if it was worn up to 1900. Any chance it was continued after 1901 or was it an artists representation which might have a bit of 'license'?
Cheers,
Alex

[NorthStafford]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi again. Here's another I forgot to include earlier :
On amalgamation with the 26th Foot in 1881, the 90th did not like being called "the 2nd Cameronians" and preferred the title "Scottish Rifles". Hence this cap badge worn by the 2nd Battn from 1882 to 1900. According to Bloomer, it comes with lugs or sliders and was in white-metal. The 1st Battn of course wore the familiar Douglas Mullet star and thistle wreath in white-metal. Sorry, I don't know what the Militia and Volunteer Battns wore. Jeff
Attachment 17112
PS: See "The Scottish Rifles" Web site on www.cameronians.org

I've had one of these badges for many years and although my first thoughts were "Scottish Rifles" I've never before seen it referred to. How likely is it that the one I have is genuine do you think?

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by NorthStafford

I've had one of these badges for many years and although my first thoughts were "Scottish Rifles" I've never before seen it referred to. How likely is it that the one I have is genuine do you think?

Hi NS. Good question ! And,like a few of the badges on the previous thread, it is not in K&K or Gaylor*...although, in this case I can hardly believe they were not aware of it ??
It does however feature in both of Bloomer's books which, for the moment I am willing to accept at face value, tho' I do wonder where he got his information from. Also, as it happens, I am pursuing this very point with the Cameronians site and will let you know my findings when I have something more substatial to offer. I certainly don't know of any contemporary photos which show this badge being worn.
In the meantime, all I can suggest is that you look again more critically at your badge for any obvious signs of a re-strike or "footed lugs" etc. Regards Jeff
*although Gaylor does mention a "stringed bugle"
PS: It also features in Charlie Claydon's "Bluebell Militaria" site from time to time.

[KLR]

If it was an 'official' issue, it ought to be listed in the ACD records !?

[Deejayuu]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Attached are two examples of 2nd Battalion badges, possibly never worn, (the D of W may even be a re-strike but not a fake) that aptly illustrate the vain attempts to preserve their separate identity. Could I ask, do any other members have any more examples of specially struck 2nd Battn badges of this era that they care to share ? Jeff
Attachment 17110 Attachment 17111

Jeff,
i have been told from a reliable honourable Yorkshireman (born in Louth but lived most of his life in the Leeds area) who lives on your doorstep and has a table at Outwood that this badge was worn long after the crown suggests. I am led to beleive that the badge was adapted for use on the 2nd battalions band on the pouch? The differance between the cap and pouch was the cap badge was on a slider, the pouch on lugs or possible screw threads. And yes this badge if widely reproed!
Cheers, Dave

[Sonofacqms]

Just to throw yet another angle on "All brass badges", I was at Ware Militaria Auction viewing tonight. One lot of badges which were all "A/F" with loops missing etc had some "All brass" Scottish badges amongs them. KOSB, HLI and Black Watch. The first two had one loop missing each and they were modern strikes, the Black Watch was a different option, a deeper more bronze colour with traces where someone had lead soldered some form of fixing device which had broken away.

My point is were they originally cap badges or were they used for some other purpose. Incidently Bosleys had one from Hugh Kings collection in their last postal sale.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Hi All
It seems strange that the 2nd Inniskillings badge is shown with a KC if it was worn up to 1900. Any chance it was continued after 1901 or was it an artists representation which might have a bit of 'license'?
Cheers,
Alex

Alex, quite right. The journal is very vague in it's description of this. Calling it a glengarry badge puts it in the Victorian era but the crown is a complete contradiction of this.

The exact and complete wording from the article in relation to this badge is ...Furthermore a Glengarry badge in the Regimental Museum (fig 11) seems to convict the old Second Battalion of having borrowed the badge of our friends the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons, complete in every detail, no longer ago than 1900

Whether this reference to an alledged badge is accurate or not remains to be seen and if it is I think that it is unlikely to be a Glengarry badge and like you think it is unlikely to date from pre 1901.

John

[Alan O]

The Black Watch badge in brass was in fact Canadian. There is a thread somewhere about it.

Occasionally you come across Scottish badges that have had pins soldered on them to replcae the lugs. Presumably this made them eaier to get on and off the hats for cleaning.

Alan

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Deejayuu

Jeff,
i have been told from a reliable honourable Yorkshireman (born in Louth but lived most of his life in the Leeds area) who lives on your doorstep and has a table at Outwood that this badge was worn long after the crown suggests. I am led to beleive that the badge was adapted for use on the 2nd battalions band on the pouch? The differance between the cap and pouch was the cap badge was on a slider, the pouch on lugs or possible screw threads. And yes this badge if widely reproed!
Cheers, Dave

Dave. Many thanks for the info' Can't say I'm surprised to hear about the re-strikes tho' !