Mystery Engineers unit probably colonial/dominions?

[michael1]

I should very much like to identify this regiment or unit which seems to have stumped everyone so far. He appears to be a trumpeter sergeant of an engineer unit c.1906/12 I would guess, he has trumpeter’s badge of a type peculiar to artillery and engineers, a grenade above his trade badge and grenade collar badges yet the uniform looks like no other engineer unit, in terms of uniform he resembles a Yeomanry regiment other a territorial force soldier. I think the uniform is drab with light coloured facings and silver lace but I can’t recognise the cap badge, has any one got an idea of the unit or where he comes from, alas no photographer’s details. He a,pears to wear a 3 clasp medal possibly Boer War and unfortunately his pouch belt badge is hidden by his aiguillette.

[crest-insignia]

Am I being thick, or is it unusual for a ‘ranker’ to have so much gold braid and such extravagant epaulettes?

[CAM]

I am guessing he is in the band and think many bands used to wear aguilettes.

[michael1]

That is very true especially in the Yeomanry but some units like the Governor General’s Bodyguard of Canada wore them for the ranks as well, it’s what appears to be the engineer connection with a distinctly un engineer type uniform and the mystery cap badge that is proving so difficult

[Dan M]

michael1,

To me, this photo doesn't look to be one of an authentic soldier at all. As others have pointed out there is more wrong with the uniform than right.

The trousers and tunic are two different colours. The aiguillettes and officer's shoulder boards on an NCO's uniform. On such a low resolution photo I wouldn't say for sure that the patch above the trumpeter patch is a flaming grenade and I would highly suspect the collar badges are flaming grenades either. And a cross belt and whistle? While I'm no expert, the turnback on the sleeve appears to be of infantry pattern (the single point).

Personally, I think this is a uniform made up from bits and pieces.

It would very much help you however, if you could get a high-resolution scan of the original photograph.

Cheers,
Dan

[michael1]

I have posted this in several sections and there have been a number of replies but no identification. The photos are as clear as on the original. I assure you this is pukker, not someone dressed up and the collar badges are definitely flaming grenades as is the grenade above the trade badge which is definitely the crossed trumpets worn by artillery and engineers. As for the shoulder cords and aiguillette these are not specific to officers but common in band uniforms, also worn as part of uniform by all ranks of some regiments like the Governor General’s Bodyguard of Canada, this has certainly turned out to be a controversial picture. I have seen many photos of people dressed up in uniform but these duds always have some glaringly give away clue. I know it’s tempting to dismiss pictures as people dressed up when they can’t be readily identified but I have no doubt that he is completely genuine with all due respect

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by michael1

I assure you this is pukker, not someone dressed up and the collar badges are definitely flaming grenades as is the grenade above the trade badge which is definitely the crossed trumpets worn by artillery and engineers.

I know it’s tempting to dismiss pictures as people dressed up when they can’t be readily identified but I have no doubt that he is completely genuine with all due respect

Given that there is no positive ID I don’t think you can say or prove that it is not someone dressed up with such absolute certainty, yet.

It seems a great many people can tell you a great many regiments and Corps from several countries that he is not, but no one can yet say what he is, so this does still include dress up.

My thought are his bearing does seem to fit a uniform, I hope you find an answer.

[Milmed]

You may need to consider looking at this from another angle as the ID of the uniform appears to be perplexing.

The image looks like it is a snapshot of a facebook image, so maybe that is where you need to start looking. Whos facebook page is it... is the picture of a family member of the facebook page... is there any other clues to go buy other than the uniform? With these extra bits maybe it will drive/narrow the search to a more specific location.

As my old science teacher used to say, without enough parameters (input) you cannot solve the problem.

[michael1]

Sorry if it looks like a Facebook photo, it’s actually an original photo that I own

[michael1]

Thanks for the kind message, as you say his bearing shows he must be a genuine soldier, especially the way he sports his medal. I shan’t give up just yet and should I find out will of course let the forum know but so far it’s not looking too hopeful

[btns]

There are also non uniform related questions:

Why is there a rope round the horse's neck?
What is the 'tab' behind his right thigh?
Is it customary to use a swagger stick while on horseback?
Is he wearing spurs?

Wikipedia: Cavalrymen carried a small riding cane instead of the swagger stick of infantry and other branches.
example of a cavalry riding cane: https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail....c=1976-09-22-1

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by michael1

Thanks for the kind message, as you say his bearing shows he must be a genuine soldier, especially the way he sports his medal. I shan’t give up just yet and should I find out will of course let the forum know but so far it’s not looking too hopeful

Yes he looks serious and ‘the part’ but that does not mean he ‘‘must be a genuine soldier’’.

The context and purpose of the photograph could explain his look. Not all dress up is done for fun.

Several different members from different countries have all separately raised issues with the design and make up of his uniform, it’s insignia and his mount on separate threads.

He’s not recognised by the British, Canadian, Australian or South African collectors who have responded, many of whom are very knowledgeable. So you are fast running out of geographical area for the biggest Empire the world has ever seen.

Realistically West Indies or Far East colonies are the logical remaining options.

[leigh kitchen]

League of Frontiersmen or similar organisation?

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

League of Frontiersmen or similar organisation?

I thought the badge / backing possibly looked a bit shamrock shaped and did consider paramilitary. The Young Citizens Volunteers did have a grey uniform but it wasn’t like that and the other insignia is incorrect.

[leigh kitchen]

Yep, I wondered about a shamrock but it doesn't quite fit, neither do any Legion of Frontiersmen that I know of.