British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Airborne, Elite and Special Forces Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 20-02-24, 01:32 PM
half12's Avatar
half12 half12 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Paris & Britanny
Posts: 383
Default

Hello,

Here are 3 badges "made in England". ( A fourth badge existe with bades...)
In the middle, white (a sort of nickel ?) metal.



Stangely, the 2 brass badges have two different sizes, wich means two different tools ...



Best regards .. Herve
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 20-02-24, 04:56 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 2,581
Default

Superb display Herve
Do you think any of these were used as replacements actually in WW2?
I find it difficult to believe they would be, given issues to VIPs were of the official numbered type - and registered as such.
My personal belief is that all are post-war souvenir's, but your opinion would be very much valued.
Thanks as ever for posting - always great to hear your thoughts, and see your posts
All the very best
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 20-02-24, 05:45 PM
half12's Avatar
half12 half12 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Paris & Britanny
Posts: 383
Default

Hello Mike,

I should like to deliver a scoop but ...
I must agree with your pesonnal belief, they have nothing to do with the official BFMC numbered badge.
They are post ww2 souvenirs ... with a nice strike.

Best regards .. Herve
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 20-02-24, 06:37 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 2,581
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by half12 View Post
Hello Mike,

I should like to deliver a scoop but ...
I must agree with your pesonnal belief, they have nothing to do with the official BFMC numbered badge.
They are post ww2 souvenirs ... with a nice strike.

Best regards .. Herve
Many thanks Herve - we are in agreement as always
All the best
Mike
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 25-02-24, 10:58 PM
tcrown's Avatar
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 362
Default Details on 'Made in England' Badge

Herve, Very intriguing comparison suggesting at least two batches of the ‘Made in England’ badge existed. The original badge measured 45 mil in height, 42 mil wide at the top of the shield.
Made in England two sizes.jpg
It would be interesting to know the exact measurements of your two badges.

I added a bit of background information about the original badge creation process:
In March 1944, Capt Kieffer decided to go ahead with the badge creation for his 1st FM Commando Unit. Cpl Chauvet who had worked on several projects already with Lt Trepel was tasked with the job.

M. Chauvet: ‘’The title of the unit was long, and I imagined supporting the shield with a ribbon, a very maritime ornament, bearing a naval anchor on the left and a star on the right, reminiscent of the Corps Francs and independent companies of 1939-40. The model sent to London was drawn on a large scale on cardboard, with the help of plates and saucers, as all I had at the time was a small compass.’’

For the prototype, the size of the badge had to be decided. The dimensions adopted correspond to the Royal Sussex badge, i.e. 45 mil in height.
A dozen badges were struck by Gaunt and submitted in the early days of April to admiral d'Argenlieu for approval. He rejected the star on the right of the ribbon because it was too closely associated with the US or USSR. It was decided to replace it with another anchor.

The striking corner was engraved by one of Gaunt's best craftsmen, who initially refused to modify his work. After some discussion, he agreed to drill a hole of a few millimetres in the form and insert a small pellet bearing the second anchor.

As a result of this, a very slight mark can be seen on the right-hand side of the ribbon close to the shank of the anchor (see below a close up of an original badge #122)
Right Anchor Default.JPG

Interestingly enough, I can see a similar mark on an example of the ‘Made in England’ badge, which suggest that it could have been stricken from the original Gaunt corner as Paul (Belly) suspected here https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...9&postcount=14
Right Anchor Default on Beret.jpg

As for the association of the ‘Made in England’ badge with the movie, I believe M. Chauvet wanted to say the badges were produced at the time of the movie (1962) but not as props for the actors.
Georges Riviere & Gilles Delamare.jpg
From left to right, Georges Riviere & Gilles Delamare who portrayed respectively SM de Montlaur & Mot Devagers

Christian Marquand closeup.jpg
Christian Marquand as Capt Kieffer in the movie.

All were equipped with modern Commando Marine badges (5 mil higher than the original 1st BFM badges)
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 26-02-24, 01:17 AM
elwe23's Avatar
elwe23 elwe23 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: France
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by half12 View Post
Hello,

Here are 3 badges "made in England". ( A fourth badge existe with bades...)
In the middle, white (a sort of nickel ?) metal.

Stangely, the 2 brass badges have two different sizes, wich means two different tools ...


Best regards .. Herve
Thanks Hervé for posting those comparisons coast to coast.
I have a photo of the blades one, but not gonna post it as I don't have the autorisation of it's owner.

That confirm my theory of several copies/restrikes made. I have the exact same one as you, the one on the left.

I would like to discuss all of this more privately because we are giving too much details to the fakers here ie dimensions and all. I have already been talking to this subject with Mike B privately.

Best
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 26-02-24, 01:49 AM
elwe23's Avatar
elwe23 elwe23 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: France
Posts: 190
Default

Thanks Tcrown for your reply as well.

Please don't give the exact dimensions here for fakers. In private it is better IMO.

Yes the story of the creation of the badge is well known but it is the first time I'm seing those details with the corresponding size with a Royal Sussex badge.
Same for Gaunt's best craftman story.
Where have you found those details ? any sources ?

I have around 20 photos of different original 1BFMC badges and this theory of the right anchor black stain is not seen properly elsewhere clearly. I will have to study that more.
That being said I agree 100% with Paul, you, the front of a "real" Made In England badge is the verbatim copy of an original badge.
When was it made ? We need to find more evidences.

For the longest day story told by Maurice Chauvet as you said, maybe they were made at the same time but not worn. If so who would have make them ? Maurice said he heard 600 units of those badges were made. That's a lot. "they were produced in england, their back are hollowed and it is written made in england. Several collectors own them".
In a letter correspondance I have from 1988 he said the same thing again but this time 200 to 300 units made.
He said the ones made for veterans were the 1974 souvenirs star one and the JR Gaunt C 1943 ones. I have several proofs photos of that worn during commemorations over the years.

Best
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 26-02-24, 04:16 AM
tcrown's Avatar
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwe23 View Post
Please don't give the exact dimensions here for fakers. In private it is better IMO.
Don’t hesitate to send the details through PM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwe23 View Post
it is the first time I'm seing those details with the corresponding size with a Royal Sussex badge.
Same for Gaunt's best craftman story.
Where have you found those details ? any sources ?
this can be found in M. Chauvet’s memoirs published in 1995

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwe23 View Post
He said the ones made for veterans were the 1974 souvenirs star one and the JR Gaunt C 1943 ones. I have several proofs photos of that worn during commemorations over the years.
It is weird that the ‘made in England’ was not popular amongst veterans
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 26-02-24, 01:06 PM
elwe23's Avatar
elwe23 elwe23 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: France
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post

It is weird that the ‘made in England’ was not popular amongst veterans
Yes it is weird. As they look very verbatim copy from front better than the C 1943.

Ok I have one book from him I have to read "Mille et un jour pour le jour J".

Will write to you in PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 26-02-24, 01:27 PM
half12's Avatar
half12 half12 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Paris & Britanny
Posts: 383
Default

Hello Gentlemen,

Please find the mesures ... (I don't have a digital caliper...)



Best regards .. Herve
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 26-02-24, 03:06 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 2,581
Default

It is good to see how this discussion has evolved.
I have massive resect for Maurice - but from experience know his recollections are not always 100% correct. The tale provided to me regarding Rene Eugiene Deuil badge in my ownership (267) was completely wrong - the true story was unveiled by Mickael Grinie - to whom I am most grateful.

I am grateful to be referred to Maurice Chauvet autobiography - I just wonder how accurate it is? - Why choose the Royal Sussex badge I wonder? The width is way off, even if height is comparable (see update not even close) . You will have to excuse some scepticism, but I find Maurice as a source unreliable, even though I admire his courage, determination, and other aspects - not least as designer of the badge.

Always welcome to thoughts - and recognising these views are slightly inflammatory.

This badge is full of intrigue - good to see the discussion ...

Thinking aloud - The CO of No.10 (I-A) Cdo was Dudley Lister - Buffs (Royal East Kent Reg) - he was succeeded by Peter Laycock in May 1944 ( Nottinghamshire Yeomanry) - I have not measured those badges but wonder if one of those could be the one Maurice meant?

UPDATE

Just roughly checked measurements of Royal Sussex - Width 36mm, height 40mm. This is way off the height of a genuine badge (I notice Elwe does not want to disclose those dimensions here)
Buffs (purely for interest) - Width 43mm Height 34mm - so not that either.

Last edited by Mike B; 26-02-24 at 03:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 27-02-24, 03:15 AM
tcrown's Avatar
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 362
Default

Mike, unfortunately inaccuracies are quite common with veterans' accounts especially when written 50 years after the war. M. Chauvet is no exception as it is the case also with is comrades from the French commando. Even Capt Kieffer's official report of D-Day issued on June 14, 1944 brings some inaccurate details.
Nevertheless, I thought it would be interesting to read about the creation process of this unique and famous badge.
I sent you a PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 27-02-24, 08:00 AM
Mike B Mike B is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: North West
Posts: 2,581
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Mike, unfortunately inaccuracies are quite common with veterans' accounts especially when written 50 years after the war. M. Chauvet is no exception as it is the case also with is comrades from the French commando. Even Capt Kieffer's official report of D-Day issued on June 14, 1944 brings some inaccurate details.
Nevertheless, I thought it would be interesting to read about the creation process of this unique and famous badge.
I sent you a PM.
Yes, it is certainly interesting to hear of all sources - we can then analyse. I used to attend the Commando Reunions locally and nationally - many with the former Secretary Ron Youngman. The Commando Association stood down in 2005, due to diminished numbers unfortunately. I t has been reformed - but is not WW2 veterans now. Most veteran accounts were vivid and stood up to scrutiny - several were a little confused. It was my greatest reward to take tales and add context the veterans often did not appreciate. The pleasure it brought, when I reported back to them, and their confidence in me - with whom they shared many tapes, accounts etc - was far greater reward than I could hope for. Not once did I seek badges or insignia - that to me was taboo - my collection came from public sources - but those veterans taught me a great deal - I will always be grateful to them.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 28-02-24, 12:58 AM
elwe23's Avatar
elwe23 elwe23 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: France
Posts: 190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
It is good to see how this discussion has evolved.
I have massive resect for Maurice - but from experience know his recollections are not always 100% correct. The tale provided to me regarding Rene Eugiene Deuil badge in my ownership (267) was completely wrong - the true story was unveiled by Mickael Grinie - to whom I am most grateful.

I am grateful to be referred to Maurice Chauvet autobiography - I just wonder how accurate it is? - Why choose the Royal Sussex badge I wonder? The width is way off, even if height is comparable (see update not even close) . You will have to excuse some scepticism, but I find Maurice as a source unreliable, even though I admire his courage, determination, and other aspects - not least as designer of the badge.

Always welcome to thoughts - and recognising these views are slightly inflammatory.

This badge is full of intrigue - good to see the discussion ...

Thinking aloud - The CO of No.10 (I-A) Cdo was Dudley Lister - Buffs (Royal East Kent Reg) - he was succeeded by Peter Laycock in May 1944 ( Nottinghamshire Yeomanry) - I have not measured those badges but wonder if one of those could be the one Maurice meant?

UPDATE

Just roughly checked measurements of Royal Sussex - Width 36mm, height 40mm. This is way off the height of a genuine badge (I notice Elwe does not want to disclose those dimensions here)
Buffs (purely for interest) - Width 43mm Height 34mm - so not that either.
Thanks Mike for checking this theory.
Maybe it was based on another badge but dimensions could have changed.
Maybe it was just an inspiration who knows with Maurice.

Thanks Hervé for your measurements. I will not say more in the open public but it is confirming exactly what I have been working on.

There must be some archives of the matrix/mold Gaunt used to do the real thing with their initial dimensions.
Maurice said the JR Gaunt C 1943 was made by Gaunt also. Dimensions are really close to the original cap badge but details are not as good as the Made in England one.
Also with Mike GR we are gonna try if we can find some french archives.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 28-02-24, 05:01 PM
tcrown's Avatar
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by half12 View Post
Hello Gentlemen,

Please find the mesures ... (I don't have a digital caliper...)
Thanks Herve. I sent you a PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:23 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.