Isle of Man soldier ( 7th V.B. or WW1 Isle of Man Volunteers )

[Peter Brydon]

I was very pleased to win this photo of an Isle of Man soldier being sold on E bay by an American seller. The photograph is by a local Photographer G.H. Evans of 18,Prospect Hill, Douglas, Isle of Man.

Frustratingly whilst the pattern on the G.S. buttons can be clearly seen, the wording on the circle on the cap badge cannot even with a glass. The 7th ( IOM ) V.B., Kings Liverpool Regiment and the WW1 Isle of Man Volunteers had very similar cap badges ( figures 5 and 8 in the second photo ).

To me the uniforms suggests WW1 Isle of Man Volunteers but I would be interested if any members have any ideas.

P.B.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Peter Brydon

I was very pleased to win this photo of an Isle of Man soldier being sold on E bay by an American seller. The photograph is by a local Photographer G.H. Evans of 18,Prospect Hill, Douglas, Isle of Man.

Frustratingly whilst the pattern on the G.S. buttons can be clearly seen, the wording on the circle on the cap badge cannot even with a glass. The 7th ( IOM ) V.B., Kings Liverpool Regiment and the WW1 Isle of Man Volunteers had very similar cap badges ( figures 5 and 8 in the second photo ).

To me the uniforms suggests WW1 Isle of Man Volunteers but I would be interested if any members have any ideas.

P.B.

The shade of his jacket and the edge stitched design of the chest pockets appears to me to indicate IoM Volunteers. I seem to recall that the VTC initially wore that style of uniform as an alternative to the 'Norfolk' type.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

The shade of his jacket and the edge stitched design of the chest pockets appears to me to indicate IoM Volunteers. I seem to recall that the VTC wore that style of uniform.

I concur with Toby on this one the gentleman in question is a WWI Volunteer, not a pre-War Volunteer or Territorial.

[Paul Spellman]

Hi Peter
Quite possibly he was a member of one of the Companys' raised who went on to guard the Interment Camp on the Isle.
Paul

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Hi Peter
Quite possibly he was a member of one of the Companys' raised who went on to guard the Interment Camp on the Isle.
Paul

As far as I'm aware - no V.T.C./Volunteer units participated in guarding P.O.W.'s, a task which in general was given to the P.O.W. Company's, Royal Defence Corps - many of whom were too old or ill to serve overseas and former wounded/sick who were no longer physically fit for overseas service.

Should the IoM Volunteers have been allotted 'P.O.W.' guard duties, then it would be additional information not currently recorded in relation to these units.

[Paul Spellman]

This may prove helpful
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnoteb...w1922/ch02.htm
Paul

[Peter Brydon]

The expression never say never springs to mind but the Isle of Man Volunteers ( i.e. the 7th (IOM) V.B. Kings Liverpool Regiment ) were in a unique position within the British Army after 1908.

P.B.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

This may prove helpful
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnoteb...w1922/ch02.htm
Paul

The unit to which you refer would be the "The Loyal Manx Association", which would appear to be a National Reserve unit. This in itself was affiliated to the Territorial Force Association and not to the "Central Association of Volunteer Corps", which in general was formed from ad-hoc local defence organisations which had been formed up and down the country.

It's not until May, 1915, that the Loyal Manx Association were formed into the "Loyal Manx Volunteer Corps", and affiliated to the Central Association of Volunteer Training Corps. However as the article correctly states they did continue to perform guard duty at Douglas prisoner of war camp and it's 300 members were then clothed in the recognised grey/green uniform for Volunteer Corps at the Government expense.

It's interesting to note that;-
"On the 14th April, 1917, sanction was given by the War Office to the Loyal Manx Volunteer Corps being merged in the Isle of Man Volunteers, and known as No. 2 Company, with an establishment of five officers and 250 other ranks, which establishment was also sanctioned for No. 1 Company. The merging of the Loyal Manx Volunteer Corps in the Isle of Man Volunteers as No. 2 Company was conditional on no capitation grant being payable from the revenue in respect of that company. No. 2 Company continued to serve until the signing of the Armistice, when it was disbanded."

However this doesn't appear to be correct as the "Isle of Man Volunteer Regiment" makes an appearance in the October 1918 Volunteer List, wherebye it has become the 7th(Isle of Man)Volunteer Bn, The Kings(Liverpool Regiment).

The reality being that you're talking about different units.

[Paul Spellman]

Graham,
I fear you have not read the link I posted correctly.
Paul

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Graham,
I fear you have not read the link I posted correctly.
Paul

Paul - The original Isle of Man Volunteers have nothing to do with the V.T.C., they were a post-1908 Volunteer Corps, which weren't absorbed into the Territorial Force.

As previously mentioned it's the "Loyal Manx Association", which initially were a "National Reserve" unit - again this was not a V.T.C. unit, until May 1915, when they became the Loyal Manx Association Volunteer Corps - that as you correctly state also guarded P.O.W.'s..

It goes on to mention the absorbtion of the above as No.2 Coy within the "Isle of Man Volunteers", but fails to mention the "Isle of Man Volunteer Regiment", who eventually became the 7th(Isle of Man)Volunteer Bn, Kings (Liverpool Regiment). I suspect that this is what the two Companys eventually became, but the author seems to be unaware of how the system worked.

It's understanding the differences within the system - the 7th(Isle of Man)V.B., Kings (Liverpool Regiment) has nothing to do with 1908 - it was formed July 1918 along with many other units within the 'new' Volunteer Force, which itself wasn't created until 1916.

001.jpg

[Paul Spellman]

Hi Graham
The Author was the Secretary to the Manx Government, I think the confusion stems from the fact 2-3 further Companies to the Isle of Man Volunteer Corps were raised plus Service Companies who provided the Guards at the Douglas POW camp to 1915 thereafter disbanded with any fit volunteers willing to serve overseas joining the 16th Bn KLR.
The Loyal Manx Association (Volunteer Corps) was formed in 1914 though only affiliated to the VTC as long as it did not conflict with their rules, they also providing PoW guard duties as you confirm.
It does seem they adopted the same uniform as the VTC but as in the picture Peter has shown wore a IoM Vol Corps badge.
Paul

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Hi Graham
The Author was the Secretary to the Manx Government, I think the confusion stems from the fact 2-3 further Companies to the Isle of Man Volunteer Corps were raised plus Service Companies who provided the Guards at the Douglas POW camp to 1915 thereafter disbanded with any fit volunteers willing to serve overseas joining the 16th Bn KLR.
The Loyal Manx Association (Volunteer Corps) was formed in 1914 though only affiliated to the VTC as long as it did not conflict with their rules, they also providing PoW guard duties as you confirm.
It does seem they adopted the same uniform as the VTC but as in the picture Peter has shown wore a IoM Vol Corps badge.
Paul

Have to agree that confusion does appear and if the "Isle of Man Volunteers" and it's two Companys did eventually become the Isle of Man Volunteer Regiment, then I wonder if No.1 Company, although now dressed in grey/green - continued to wear their 'old' capbadge.

I also noticed that it's Captain Fox, that appears to be in Command of the 7th(IOM)V.B. in 1918, when the least I would expect would be a Major and at the least the senior officer of No.1 Company?. What makes it even more strange is that he's the O.C. No.2 Coy, Isle of Man Volunteers (formerly the Loyal Manx Association) - so I'm puzzled as to why the remaining officers of both Companys aren't listed??

[Graham Stewart]

Hi Paul - it's just come to me and I owe you an apology.

In the Volunteer List 1918, every unit is clearly titled "Volunteer Regiment" and I've just noticed that the "Isle of Man" isn't and this is because there was no such beast.

What the V.L. is indicating is that No.2 Company, led by Fox are 'technically' members of the new "Volunteer Force", absorbed into the 'old' 7th(IOM)Vol Bn, Kings(Liverpool Regiment), including No.1 Company, which are 'technically' part of the Territorial Force. Without a doubt a unique and confusing situation, but it's now clear to me why No.1 Company's officers aren't on the same list.

There were infact only three new Volunteer Battalions created in 1918 for the Kings Regt and they came from the Lancashire Volunteer Regt. There was no 4th, 5th or 6th V.B.'s.. So the 7th(IOM)V.B., Kings was a resurrected title not intended for the new Volunteer Force.

[Peter Brydon]

The 7th ( Isle of Man ) Volunteer Battalion, Kings Liverpool Regiment, although only of company strength were the only unit in the British Isles to remain a Volunteer unit after 1908.

The following is from The Territorial Year Book- published in 1909.

The 7th (IOM) V.B. ceased to exist in March 1920



P.B.

[Peter Brydon]

As a further matter of interest the Volunteer Long Service Medal in the picture is the second rarest in my collection ( the scarcest being to the Liverpool Scottish ).

The medal shown was awarded to Sgt C.Sayle of the 7th (IOM) V.B. K.L.R. in April 1918 and has the head of Kings George 5th on it.

P.B.