Badly punched Norfolk Regiment

[Jelly Terror]

Tony,

I didn't notice it before - the edge of the miscut section corresponds with the lower part of Britannia's arm. Clearly badge and punch/blade(?) were misaligned during this part of the process;

tonyb Norfolk.jpg

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier

Hello JT,
Thank you. How long is a piece of string? I try to form an opinion by listening to the views of serious, experienced collectors; I value the views expressed in respected militaria magazines, pamphlets and books; I appreciate the views of experienced collectors who contribute to the Forum. I find there is no better substitute than handling badges. All in all, I well recognise that in most cases there are are many varied opinions and I respect the views of the next man. I try to avoid regarding other opinions as crass and I do not regard other collectors as Colonel Blimpish. Further, I try not to be dogmatic. 38 years service in the Army
taught me that setting hard and fast rules is not always the best way forward. Even in more modern times Regimental Dress and, to a degree customs, were rather flexible. I hesitate to imagine the diversities of insignia existing in militia and volunteer days and, yes, as recently as WW1. But I accept that fake and re-produced badges have been with us for many years.

Thanks for this.

I think you touch on an interesting point regarding dogma. It is often easier to fall into line with the majority rather than to express a difference of opinion and go against the grain.

There have been times in the past where the forum has felt like anything but, with members being reluctant to engage lest they be shot down in flames by the more vociferous and bellicose members who appeared to see little value in welcoming differences in opinion. The danger of this of course, is that by stifling debate, progress will also be stifled and a situation develops where the views of those who shout loudest prevail. Cue dogma.

Regards,

JT

[tonyb]

Yes JT agreed,
I had noticed the misalignment, I have a 'perfect' example of the same badge I will post, it highlights the same misalignment on the lower part of the badge.
Tony.

[magpie]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Tony,

I didn't notice it before - the edge of the miscut section corresponds with the lower part of Britannia's arm. Clearly badge and punch/blade(?) were misaligned during this part of the process;

Attachment 280235

Which is why I said they are probably set up pieces

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by magpie

Which is why I said they are probably set up pieces

Nice one, Andy.

Quite interesting how these factory seconds, can provide an insight into the badge-making process.

Cheers,

JT

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Thanks for this.

I think you touch on an interesting point regarding dogma. It is often easier to fall into line with the majority rather than to express a difference of opinion and go against the grain.

There have been times in the past where the forum has felt like anything but, with members being reluctant to engage lest they be shot down in flames by the more vociferous and bellicose members who appeared to see little value in welcoming differences in opinion. The danger of this of course, is that by stifling debate, progress will also be stifled and a situation develops where the views of those who shout loudest prevail. Cue dogma.

Regards,

JT

Well said but i am glad we are not 3rd Reich collectors who from my limited exposure have some very intolerant traits. I think discussion is always good along with healthy scepticism of some of the more 'commercially minded' claims one sees on auction and dealers' sites about badges. The forum is without doubt the best source of knowledge and information available and surpasses any published work: it relies on the members' contributions and I would encourage everyone to contribute in a grown up and helpful way.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Well said but i am glad we are not 3rd Reich collectors who from my limited exposure have some very intolerant traits. I think discussion is always good along with healthy scepticism of some of the more 'commercially minded' claims one sees on auction and dealers' sites about badges. The forum is without doubt the best source of knowledge and information available and surpasses any published work: it relies on the members' contributions and I would encourage everyone to contribute in a grown up and helpful way.

A visit from the Secret Forum Police (Gefopo) in the middle of the night

[Volunteer Soldier]

Good morning Alan, Thank you. In the mid 1970s many collectors "enjoyed" the catalogues of a certain Lincolnshire dealer - up to 50 pages (no photos etc) of many scarce badges, often at very affordable prices. The inclusion of any badge did not, of course, mean that it was a re-strike etc, but many of us used the catalogue as a sign that a burgeoning number of re-struck badges were appearing on the market. Some believed that all the listed badges were genuine
- but really. 1916 all brass economy KOSB, Cameronians, HLI, Gordons, Seaforths and Camerons all available at £6.50 to £8.00 a badge. War Raised Units? - nil desperandum since ALL badges including some HM silver at £25 were
available. Further, potential buyers were offered a choice of type of metal - brass, bronze, bim, gilt/enamel. 18th Middlesex? Take your pick from die struck scroll, solid brass scroll or bronze. The most outrageous offerings in my opinion, and of course I could have been wrong, were the Scottish badges. I lost count after the first 20 (all different) VB's. Interestingly, English and Welsh VBs were unavailable except 2VB Hampshire, 5VB SWB, 1VB DCLI. 1VB R Warwick and 2VB Queens (bronze). He offered a 1959 QC chrome version of most most Line Regiments. My penultimate comment is that just because so many badges appeared in his catalogues did not mean, per se, that they were rubbish - but in my opinion "rubbish" describes them accurately. But there again, perhaps the Scottish Regiments did, in 1916, wear all brass economy badges. Finally - well done the Forum for introducing sound opinions, opportunities to express opinions
and bear traps to be avoided. After all, occasional Colonel Blimps and crass comments are surely a small price to pay?

[Luke H]

VS just to clarify. I and no one ever said that KOSB, Cameronians, HLI, Gordons, Seaforths and Camerons wore 1916 GM badges. We know they did not. The list of infantry who did is crystal clear and only includes Royal Scots amongst the Scottish Regiments.

The discussion was around magnetic and nickel plated badges, a couple of the latter which had lost its finish revealing brass underneath.

I hope that clarifies the situation and sorry to have diverted the thread.

I should expect many of the dies you mention were taken over by Martin Marsh and continued sale in his catalogues. He also offered choice of metals etc. and was not the first incarnation of the business.

Marsh in his catalogue does not state they’re original, nor does he state directly they are repros, but he does describe them as being ‘new mint condition’. This is in his terms of sale page in my album.

[Volunteer Soldier]

I forgot to add that together with a small group of mischief makers I asked about 5th (Scottish) Glider Pilot Regt (£2.50). SAS (Present Day 1975 issue cloth) £1, SAS (Ceremonial Parades) bim £5, Popski Private Army wm. brass, HM silver, Special SP edition marked copy at £5, 2 Commando, 6 Commando, 50-52 Commando (knuckle duster), LRDG, RSR and V-Force Commando. Sadly we obviously missed the boat and never received a reply - we did not wonder why.

[Volunteer Soldier]

Luke H, Thank you but no clarification needed. Thanks to the Forum I am confident we are all crystal clear on 1916 brass economy badges.

[steelbonnet]

No doubt a genuine badge, but maybe just post WW1.
in the early 1970's I got a collection of badges from an old collector who had bought one each week with his very limited wages as a delivery boy from a market stall in London.The dealer always had a box of low grade examples for a few pennies as well as his regular stock at an unaffordable price. His belief was that these were factory rejects acquired by market traders. Always have believed this to be true. The badges were unfinished poor stampings bits of flash attached small bits missing etc, all the things that would fail quality control. I will search my odd box to see if I have any left, and will post pics.
Gordon

[magpie]

Quality control was the person doing the op at the time and anything you rejected was taken off the amount £,s,d for the quantity of items being made and some never rejected anything making problems for those further down the line.