Badly punched Norfolk Regiment

[tonyb]

Pretty sure this is a genuine badge.
The worst example I've come across, had to have it for curiosity value.
Comments welcome Tony.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by tonyb

Pretty sure this is a genuine badge.
The worst example I've come across, had to have it for curiosity value.
Comments welcome Tony.

Hello Tony,

Genuine to the best of my Norfolk badge knowledge.

I quite like these poorly-finished badges when they turn up. As you say, curiosity value:

Type 4L h1.jpgType 4L h2.jpg

Regards,

JT

[cbuehler]

Those badges are indeed a mess. Hard to understand how the made to the point wherein the slider was attached. One would think them to have been binned before going further.

CB

[Luke H]

As JT say genuine and I also suspect WW1 manufacture. Intriguing products of their time.

I’ve a similar Manchester Regiment by Lambourne & Co.

… I’m sure a certain member will deem mine doubly fake on account of badges apparently not being made this way and said company never being known as ‘& Co’. As ever I look forward to his musings.

[Frank Kelley]

From the photographs, I would have thought a nice badge that has not been finished off during manufacture.

Originally Posted by Luke H

As JT say genuine and I also suspect WW1 manufacture. Intriguing products of their time.

I’ve a similar Manchester Regiment by Lambourne & Co.

… I’m sure a certain member will deem mine doubly fake on account of badges apparently not being made this way and said company never being known as ‘& Co’. As ever I look forward to his musings.

[Lampwick]

Is 'musings' REALLY the bon mot for what his comments will be?

[magpie]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

Those badges are indeed a mess. Hard to understand how the made to the point wherein the slider was attached. One would think them to have been binned before going further.

CB

No not really if you've worked for an old style English metal work company, a lot of these are are going to be press set ups, you'd also be on piece work and scrap badges would be down to you if you thought it not up to standard even though it may have been through two previous operator's who had signed them as good, so not only would you loose money you'd have a question mark put against your name as to why you have scrappage.

[Volunteer Soldier]

World War 1 manufacture and in pristine condition? I prefer to regard them as garden shed efforts by a would-be Mr Marsh. I often wish I had kept my correspondence with Laurie A. during the very early 1970s. He had so much to offer with his views on restrike and fake badges. Oddly, we never seemed to discuss the likes of the Norfolk and Queens badges. I wonder if they were around some 50 odd years ago? Perhaps someone could post an example which, at least, could show a purported age of some 104 to 108 years old. Until then, I will agree with my colleagues who keep them as interesting items - and disagree with the view that they represent the war-time demands of manufacturing during the WW1 period. I hope there are no examples in the Marsh catalogue.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier

World War 1 manufacture and in pristine condition? I prefer to regard them as garden shed efforts by a would-be Mr Marsh. I often wish I had kept my correspondence with Laurie A. during the very early 1970s. He had so much to offer with his views on restrike and fake badges. Oddly, we never seemed to discuss the likes of the Norfolk and Queens badges. I wonder if they were around some 50 odd years ago? Perhaps someone could post an example which, at least, could show a purported age of some 104 to 108 years old. Until then, I will agree with my colleagues who keep them as interesting items - and disagree with the view that they represent the war-time demands of manufacturing during the WW1 period. I hope there are no examples in the Marsh catalogue.

An interesting comment.

In my experience most genuine Volunteer Battalion badges do not show the age you mention owing to the superior quality of their metals.

One would think someone as experienced yourself would acknowledge how drastically different storage conditions affect condition and appearance of badges.

Yes there are examples of all 3 in the Marsh catalogue.

Norfolk is the Mr Punch fake.
Queen’s is the golf ball fake
Manchester is the goggled eyed antelope fake with big eyebrow (clearer on the V.B. example but same top half was used).

N.B. to all repros do not start or end with Marsh.

Any way I’m not interested in an argument or you trying to discredit me because of the other thread. If you want to call these chaps badges wrong ‘uns I know both have the experience and knowledge to stick up for themselves.

Here is part of one of Laurie Archer’s notes. Enjoy.

[Volunteer Soldier]

Thank you. A most useful Laurie extract and a view for which I have the utmost respect. Please be reassured that I have neither wish nor intent to discredit you. I leave that entirely to you. I have some VB cap, HP and glengarry badges in my collection which show varying degrees of age, wear and tear. Some collectors, of course, clean their badges too. However I am able to assess the age of some by their lugs et al. My reference to the Marsh catalogue was merely to ponder if MR Marsh had offered such malformed badges for sale. I find so many of your comments to be extremely helpful - tis a pity that sometimes you doth protest too much. Keep up the good work, relax a touch, and we will continue to benefit from the fruits of you labour for some years to come.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier

World War 1 manufacture and in pristine condition? I prefer to regard them as garden shed efforts by a would-be Mr Marsh. I often wish I had kept my correspondence with Laurie A. during the very early 1970s. He had so much to offer with his views on restrike and fake badges. Oddly, we never seemed to discuss the likes of the Norfolk and Queens badges. I wonder if they were around some 50 odd years ago? Perhaps someone could post an example which, at least, could show a purported age of some 104 to 108 years old. Until then, I will agree with my colleagues who keep them as interesting items - and disagree with the view that they represent the war-time demands of manufacturing during the WW1 period. I hope there are no examples in the Marsh catalogue.

Hello Graham,

Hope all is well?

Just for clarification and for the purposes of developing further what I hope will remain an interesting thread: may I ask what in your view, as a long-standing collector, might constitute credible criteria for establishing the age of a badge from the Great War period?

All the best,

JT

[Alan O]

If you go to my Victorian albums you will see lots of badge that are over 100 years old.

[Volunteer Soldier]

Hello JT,
Thank you. How long is a piece of string? I try to form an opinion by listening to the views of serious, experienced collectors; I value the views expressed in respected militaria magazines, pamphlets and books; I appreciate the views of experienced collectors who contribute to the Forum. I find there is no better substitute than handling badges. All in all, I well recognise that in most cases there are are many varied opinions and I respect the views of the next man. I try to avoid regarding other opinions as crass and I do not regard other collectors as Colonel Blimpish. Further, I try not to be dogmatic. 38 years service in the Army
taught me that setting hard and fast rules is not always the best way forward. Even in more modern times Regimental Dress and, to a degree customs, were rather flexible. I hesitate to imagine the diversities of insignia existing in militia and volunteer days and, yes, as recently as WW1. But I accept that fake and re-produced badges have been with us for many years.

[Volunteer Soldier]

Thank you Alan. Yes, I have seen and admired many of your posts and albums. If you are happy that your antique badges are genuine of the period then I am happy for you. Of course, I would be very reluctant to express my opinion until I have had the benefit of studying both front and rear - the lugs can so often can tell a tale. It is my view, and therefore can be disregarded by all others, that a number of your VB badges have been favoured by the re-strike merchants and are offered frequently by dealers. But you will have your own views.

[Alan O]

I am happy that the VB are all genuine with 2 suspects. The usual ones: Hants VB and Devon VB. The single metal are hardest to judge. There are several that have been restruck but as you say the lugs and reverses are a good guide.

The regular regts are 100% genuine imo.

Alan