Para or Commando Denison smock?

[Burton P]

Hi, I'd like the forum members opinions on some research I'm doing on a Denison smock that I own.

It has a label dated 1944 and a W^D stamp with a Z, which I believe
indicates that it was issued in 1945.



The insignia are of a Captain in the RAMC. The Dropzone flash only appears on the left arm and is for a Royal Artillery unit. the flash is made from 2 pieces of felt and measures 70mm x 70mm or 2 3/4 inches square. All the insignia, labels and the smock itself appear legitimate, and I do not believe that they are modern additions.




Also, I have found faint letters in the collar, that I have enhanced using infrared photography that I assume must be the original owner's initials.



Finally, there is stitiching visible on the inside of the smock for a badge that was on the left upper arm, and removed at some point before I acquired the smock. The stitiching is triangular, and I think the badge might have been the Commando Trained dagger badge.


Despite all these clues, I have reached a dead end in my attempts to discover the original owner, and I would appreciate any advice.

I have been searching for late war and post-war RAMC officers attached to Airborne artillery units. I now wonder however if this might have been an RAMC officer attached to a Commando unit, who had also done jump training. Also, the Dropzone flash suggests a post-war operation does it not, and the fact it is on only one arm perhaps a post 1980 date.

So what does the forum think?
Cheers, Burton

[SAS1]

None of the photos open for me, but it sounds like one that was on eBay about a month ago, which was a wartime smock, with RAMC pips and a 7 RHA DZ on the sleeve. I have an idea it was discussed here, have a look through the section. It was a puzzle to me, but can't comment more on yours without seeing the photos.

[Burton P]

Yes, it is probably that smock. I'll try again with the photos, and search for the original discussion. Thanks.

[Burton P]

I hope that has fixed the pics. Yes, the smock is almost certainly the same one you discussed. I'll have a look for the discussion. Thanks.

[Mike Jackson]

The backings to the badges of rank on that smock seem to me to be identical to those I wore (as a Gunner) on BD in 1963 - ie neither scarlet (Inf and RMP) nor dull cherry (RAMC) but red (RA). So was the owner a diminutive Gunner officer in 7 RHA who added the Cdo qualification badge on its introduction in c 1977? That could narrow the field of search a bit.

[Burton P]

I will certainly explore that Mike, thanks! It might explain why I have run out of leads on rthe RAMC front. If, so the smock was in use much later than I thought. Were wartime smocks still being issued then?
Cheers,

Burton

[Burton P]

Another thought occurs to me. If the flash and everything else is post-war what about the wings; are they 1960's vintage as well?

[Mike_2817]

Re Post #5 - I was about to say the same thing that the stars (pips) look more Red than Scarlet but defiantly not Dull Cherry

I have had examples of WO1 'Royal Arms in Wreath' with Red border which were/are Master Gunner RA passed on to me as Scarlet bordered Conductor RAOC/RLC, the difference is that subtle at times.

Example of Dull Cherry RAMC Rank Stars (Pips)

[Burton P]

Chaps, I wonder if my photography is confusing the issue. Here is a new photo in natural light without a flash. To my eye the backing looks less red in the smock than in my pics! Whether it is scarlet, dull cherry or whatever, I will defer to you guys.[IMG][/IMG]

[Alan O]

They are not RAMC pips imo.

[Colin S]

The pips are clearly RA red rather than RAMC dull cherry, which would match the RA DZ flash and the commando qualification dagger on left shoulder. The smock is WWII but clearly used by a gunner officer in the 1970s after the intoducion of the Dagger as an Army qualification badge.

The interesting thing is that 7 Para Regt RHA should have two DZ flashes - one on each arm, while 29 Cdo Regt RA should have only the dagger (and possibly two round Combined Ops badges if the wearer was part of a NGFS battery such as 148 Bty).

Interesting smock.

[Mike Jackson]

Just for recognition purposes - some more authentic Dull Cherry cloth:
RAMC 5 Inf Div.01.jpgRAMC 5 Inf Div.02.jpg

[Burton P]

OK, I'm convinced. That definitely sends me in a different direction, and fits with the provenance as described to me of 20+ yrs ago the smock coming from a retired RA officer (presumed to not be original owner, but now I'm not sure) based at Larkhill.

What about the other insignia? Are there any clues about date? Does the DZ flash definitely mean 7 RHA and therefore early 60's? (I have Charles Edwards book on DZ flashes, but it is not conclusive on the issue).

What about the wings, are they also post-war?

Thanks again for the advice.

[Mike Jackson]

33 Para Lt Regt RA was redesignated 7 Para Lt Regt RHA in Jun 61. The former wore a yellow DZ flash. Post Jun 61 others who would have worn the red/blue DZ flash could have been RA members of 1 Para Air Control Team and of course the TA - 289 Para Lt Regt RA(TA) and later (I think) 289 Para Lt Bty RHA(TA). I think 289 Bty was later a TA Cdo Bty - which might explain the stitching for the FS Knife badge.

[Unknownsoldier]

Wartime smocks were in issue until the mid 60s at least I believe as my fiend in the SAS burnt loads of them in a stores clearout...

Tom