British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Airborne, Elite and Special Forces Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 25-09-20, 07:51 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 658
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwash View Post
Sun's out ! this pattern as always created confusion because of the unsymmetrical rigging lines. cannot comment on the feet of the lugs as my angle grinder is on loan. I seem to remember an image of a Gaunt catalogue illustrating lugs that did possess evolutionary feet, however not size tens. I also remember being told by a collector that I should avoid any cap badge with lugs that are the same colour as copper fittings used for plumbing.
A fairly large foot on this D shaped Gaunt lug in my opinion.

20200925_203243.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 26-09-20, 11:27 AM
silverwash's Avatar
silverwash silverwash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 457
Default

with the aid of a clothes peg herewith closeup. as can be discerned the lug possesses an embryonic foot, ill fitting for a clodhopper.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF0287.jpg (27.5 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF0288.jpg (29.8 KB, 67 views)
__________________
" the art of collecting badges, darker'n a black steer's tookus on a moonless prairie night "

Last edited by silverwash; 26-09-20 at 12:48 PM. Reason: extra pic.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 26-09-20, 07:29 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 658
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwash View Post
with the aid of a clothes peg herewith closeup. as can be discerned the lug possesses an embryonic foot, ill fitting for a clodhopper.
Thanks for taking the trouble to show the close ups.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 26-09-20, 08:59 PM
tcrown's Avatar
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 362
Default

Very interesting discussion, Gents about a controversial badge.
I have a similar one which came with a 1945 Kangol beret.
1945 Beret NV White Metal With Beret.jpg 1945 Beret Badge attachment.jpg

I've made a few close-up comparisons with the photos provided by Marinus. We can clearly see the die flaws on mine.
Badge Comp.jpgWhite Metal Die Flaws Comp.jpg

However, the badges don't seem quite identical, particularly the lion.
Lion Comp.jpg

What's interesting is the way the unsymmetrical lugs distance which makes me think that the badge is original to the beret.
Of note, my badge has been slightly polished (rigging lines and crown) which doesn't seem to be the case for the other one.
1945 Beret NV White Metal.jpg

I would love to see a better photo of Paul's badge. Difficult to come up with a definitive conclusion on this variant as it seems.
Looking forward to seeing your comments.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 28-09-20, 09:11 AM
silverwash's Avatar
silverwash silverwash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
Thanks for taking the trouble to show the close ups.
whether any definite conclusion can be drawn to establish the parentage of this pattern remains to be seen. Firmin produced examples exhibit the same rigging line symmetry, the only fly in the ointment being the larger crown and lion.
__________________
" the art of collecting badges, darker'n a black steer's tookus on a moonless prairie night "
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 28-09-20, 10:37 AM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,905
Default

tcrown I’m certain the badge you show is the one that is the topic of interest in this thread, rather the lion and crown just appear a bit less defined.

As ever there’s no absolute way of knowing if the badge and beret started out life together.

Could you post a photo of the bases of the loops please? I assume from what I can see, albeit the photo of the back appears a bit dark and lower resolution on my phone, that they are not ‘dustbin lid’ footed?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 28-09-20, 06:21 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 658
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
A fairly large foot on this D shaped Gaunt lug in my opinion.

Attachment 231272
Would anyone say that this was a "dustbin lid" lug?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 28-09-20, 06:32 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,905
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack8 View Post
Would anyone say that this was a "dustbin lid" lug?
Not dustbin lid, no. But they are footed and very similar to the below badge.

Sadly a nice ‘D’ loop does not an original badge make..

Look at these lovely D loops with nice gold braze....... on a common moose faced stag Lovat Scouts I.Y. fake.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 062C7873-E38D-40B2-A78A-A0596C3D11BF.jpg (47.0 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg 9C680F84-DE51-4342-9051-EBC5B2C41EA1.jpg (43.1 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg F48DCBA3-337E-4E76-B0FD-2509926F2225.jpg (54.4 KB, 32 views)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 28-09-20, 08:16 PM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 658
Default

The fakers may have bought old stock lugs.

This lug is on an early voided crown AAC badge, I would say this was quite a large foot. What are the opinions on this one?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20200928_192644.jpg (54.2 KB, 69 views)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 29-09-20, 12:04 AM
silverwash's Avatar
silverwash silverwash is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 457
Default

Renoir my friend, Renoir.
__________________
" the art of collecting badges, darker'n a black steer's tookus on a moonless prairie night "
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 29-09-20, 08:34 AM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 658
Default

Yes, these early AAC badges are a work of art, sorry about the landscape format.

20200927_141807.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 29-09-20, 09:23 AM
Jack8 Jack8 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 658
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwash View Post
whether any definite conclusion can be drawn to establish the parentage of this pattern remains to be seen. Firmin produced examples exhibit the same rigging line symmetry, the only fly in the ointment being the larger crown and lion.
There is an example of a badge in forum member Luc's Parachute Regiment Cap Badge album that he describes as a replica voided crown pattern. In my opinion it is a Firmin pattern badge identical to the officers Firmin London marked badge.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 30-09-20, 12:17 AM
tcrown's Avatar
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Could you post a photo of the bases of the loops please? I assume from what I can see, albeit the photo of the back appears a bit dark and lower resolution on my phone, that they are not ‘dustbin lid’ footed?
Luke, see below a better photo of the badge.
1945 Beret NV White Metal 2.jpg

I've also added a few close-ups of the lugs (if you could clarify what you mean by 'dustbin lid' lugs, the debate would gain in clarity). The left one has been badly twisted.
1945 Beret NV White Metal Right lug closeup.jpg1945 Beret NV White Metal Right lug closeup 2.jpg1945 Beret NV White Metal left lug closeup.JPG

I've also added a photo of an interesting cigarette case provided by Dave Hiorth from Military Antiques in Toronto. The badge on it is clearly of the same type.
Dave's Cigarette Case.jpgDave's Cigarette Case Comp.jpg
It seems unlikely that a copy would have been mounted to the case (but I guess everything's possible).

Other photos of the case can be found on Dave’s website https://militaryantiquestoronto.com/...8e2f1b5c&_ss=r

In my view, this type of badge was genuinely issued towards the end of WW2 or immediately after. As for the badge that is the topic of interest in this thread, it could have been a restrike.
I'd like to see a close-up photo of Paul's 'White Metal Alternative' badge discussed on post #11. This may confirm my opinion.

Last edited by tcrown; 30-09-20 at 04:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-10-20, 11:50 PM
tcrown's Avatar
tcrown tcrown is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 362
Default

Another example of the badge for sale here https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WW2-Parachut...97.m4902.l9144

It looks like a restrike with maybe "dustbin lid" lugs. Any confirmation, Luke?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-10-20, 01:18 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,905
Default

Thank you tcrown. To me those bashed up loops look lovely and period, I like your badge. Were the badge from any other die I think no one would ever doubt it for a second.

The issue with these now is clearly some are not period with the Marlples & Beasley sliders and also the large ‘dustbin lid’ footed loops (attached) both of which are certainly not pre-1952 in my belief.

Based on silverwash’s and your examples I would suggest these have been restruck.

The lines on originality are now also slightly blurred with the flaws. Clearly silverwash’s badge is an earlier strike before they developed, however yours has flaws found on the M&B repro. Alas the perils of true restrikes.

The other alternative is the badges are original but were unfinished without fixings which were then added decades later. Personally I struggle with such a scenario.

Re the mounted badge if I had £1 for every repro I’d seen stuck on a tin, matchbox holder of piece of ‘trench art’ I’d be a happy man. Just the other day a member posted a very old looking wooden box with a fake solid Howe RND attached, sadly I cannot find the thread. A desirable badge on an ordinary trinket makes a £1 or £5 item worth maybe ten times that.

Dustbin lidded lugs is a bit of a colloquial term which you’ll find used by several members. My use of the term is to reference modern copper loops with a large flattened foot which is splayed out and wider than the gauge of the loop wire. These are very common on 1970s and beyond fakes.

I’ve attached a few examples as well as the Para badge in the other thread for comparison purposes.

Last edited by Luke H; 03-10-20 at 11:16 PM. Reason: Found better examples
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:07 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.