The Grenadier Guards Officer Field Cap Badge

[grenadierguardsman]

Has anyone see the above mention badge on eBay / The seller is Emerrson, sells good badges in my opinion. However i believe he is wrong, believing that this badge belongs to the Grenadier Guards. I have mention this to him. He says it came with a load of Officers cap badges. I don't know how to get the link, sorry.
Was just wondering what Forum members thought ? Is this a case of ignorance, or arrogance.
Thanks
Andy

[fougasse1940]

Link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-GRENA...frcectupt=true

Rgds, Thomas

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

Link: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-GRENA...frcectupt=true

Rgds, Thomas

Thanks Thomas.
Andy

[manchesters]

Looks like collar badge size to me. If so definately not GG.

regards

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Looks like collar badge size to me. If so definately not GG.

regards

Thanks Simon, yes its 30mm.
Andy

[manchesters]

The seller is one of the good guys on ebay and sells good stuff.
I think its a simple mistake in its ID, which I understand because I dont know what it actually is either.

Quite a nice badge.

regards

[Frank Kelley]

Quite a handsome looking thing, whatever it is.

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Thanks Simon, yes its 30mm.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

The problem i have with this is that in years to come, it will seen as an original cap badge to the Grenadier Guards. And the dealer has only assumed this, intact he goes as far as saying;
Grenadier Guards field service cap badge ( Officers ) and rare. He assumes ?????
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

As devil’s advocate and with great respect for you all I tentatively suggest caution. I know from my own research that the period between 1838 and the late 1840s, is not entirely clear in terms of forage cap badges worn by all ranks of the then Foot Guards. Unusually the Guards had two types of undress cap (field cap and forage cap) as early as that time and we know that they were the first infantry to wear Regimental cap badges as opposed to numbers.

I don’t think it is an officer’s badge, as they seem to have adopted bullion badges from quite early on. Cloth badges were worn on Albert bonnets (similar to but taller than Torin caps), but the forage cap badge is known to have been metal for other ranks. Might the badge shown have been used by First Class Staff among the SNCOs in battalion HQ?

I can imagine that the badge shown might have been a forage cap (with bias and stand gold lace band) badge of Sergeant Major of Battalion or QMS of Battalion. More research is needed I think. I’ve touched on this in the thread called “Grenade Fired Proper”. Such ‘staff’ badges would have been few in number and not that many would have survived. The Foot Guards officer’s and Staff SNCOs are known to have had substantially smaller badges on their forage caps than equivalents of the Line.

[grenadierguardsman]

Guards Officer badges were mostly bullion. Apart from the OSD type grenade which was the same size and pattern to OR's, in bronze though. And there are photos of officers wearing the grenade on the Foreign Service hat, probably an OR's pattern.
The badge that this thread is about is in reversed colours ? and 30mm high ? I would like to say again, that i would recommend this dealer. I have had some good badges of him.
Again though, he has stated that it is rare, an officers badge, for the field service cap and is to the Grenadier Guards ? With no proof what so ever.
I don't believe it is to the Grenadier Guards.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Andy all the badges that you are talking about in your response are relatively modern, OSD did not even exist until 1902. Queen Victoria came to the throne in 1837 and we know that not long after that, around 1838, ORs (i.e. all below commissioned officers) began to wear metal badges in forage caps.

My point is that the badge shown might be an early badge not for officers, but for battalion staff (Sgt Maj, QMS, Musketry Sergeant, Drum Maj, etc etc). I suggest that you do not rule it out just because it is not an officer’s badge. There is still research to do regarding the exact pattern of badge worn by the First Foot Guards (Grenadiers) Sgt Maj (today’s RSM) and his senior colleagues, in say 1840.

[Frank Kelley]

What do you think it is?

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

With no proof what so ever.
I don't believe it is to the Grenadier Guards.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Ive no idea Frank. Toby, yes we know the a metal badge was worn early on. I believe it to be the same as the ones worn during the Crimea, although there was a worsted grenade at that time also. Toby what about the reverse metals ?
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

It’s not reversed metals as such, but all gilt just as the officer’s bullion grenade is, albeit that the cypher is a different shade of gilt. It is interesting to compare the cypher and crown on the badge with those on the regimental button and shoulder belt plate of the exact same era.

[grenadierguardsman]

Toby my point is the dealer has made a statement, what evidence ? Why could it not be HAC ? Or to someone else ? A sweetheart badge, collar badge ?
A week or so ago i got in touch with Malcolm of Watling Militaria, with reference SBP ornaments he was selling as Coldstream Guards. I messaged him saying i didn't believe they were and why. No effort was made to, say change the description to "maybe Coldstream Guards". But no, and at £350 !!!!! Turns out they were to a Cavalry Regiment ! If your selling items and making statements you need evidence. Rather than corrupting history.
Andy