Liverpool Pals silver v 1st pattern GM

[Chipper]

Hi Frank, for sure it doesn't matter, the purpose is simply to have more info, nothing earth shattering for sure, but given most people are pretty bored, I though it a good distraction. I now think you are right, the dies are different, so following on from Julian, there may have been more than 1 maker, if we use 5000 GM badges as a rough guide.

Jerry, you have a wonderful one there, and all for a coffee! Maybe the neck feathers are indicative of Elkington?? We may never know, but it sounds reasonable.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions and observations, always a pleasure to hear from the contributors here

cheers, Tim

[leigh kitchen]

A year or two ago a forum thread featured a comparison of a few Liverpool Pals badges including Elkingtons and details re. length of lugs.
I've been unable to find it, can anyone point me towards it please?

[Frank Kelley]

It just looks a handsome badge, the detail seems rather better than on others that I've come across, certainly can't go wrong for a fiver, very nice.

Originally Posted by JBBOND

thanks Frank, no, it was about a fiver if memory serves me right, from a well known seller in an antiques market who is always sensibly prized. He does not always get it right on selling authentic items, but does most of the time and has a very good returns policy.

[Frank Kelley]

Tim, I think the head and scroll differ on your example, but, that is certainly not to say those particular dies or a similar set, actually made by Elkington, were not used at all.
You certainly have some handsome badges there in the original post.
Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by Chipper

Hi Frank, for sure it doesn't matter, the purpose is simply to have more info, nothing earth shattering for sure, but given most people are pretty bored, I though it a good distraction. I now think you are right, the dies are different, so following on from Julian, there may have been more than 1 maker, if we use 5000 GM badges as a rough guide.

Jerry, you have a wonderful one there, and all for a coffee! Maybe the neck feathers are indicative of Elkington?? We may never know, but it sounds reasonable.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions and observations, always a pleasure to hear from the contributors here

cheers, Tim

[KLR]

The archives are explicit that Elkingtons made the silver ones and the GM ones. How many dies is another thing.
One piece of evidence data that comes from the first WO official badge (8520/1915) is that there was a WO tender of April 1916 for 6k - but there is no makers - either B&P or S&W (or at least, the whole tender comes from the B&P archives which they mark their price as well as S&W prices too.


(details of that tender in the 2015 MHS Bulletin)

[Frank Kelley]

Where does this information come from please, were all officers badges smaller, were all officers badges voided between the eagles legs?

Originally Posted by KLR

The bronze OSD are slightly smaller than the silver and service badges. I have been told that a Firmin stamped example exists but I don’t know how many other makers were also involved. I still maintain that officer’s badges (cap and collar) had a void in between the eagle’s legs. I imagine that contemporary photographs would not necessarily have enough detail to reveal a void. I should go back to the IWM and other contemporary collection and get a photograph!

[High Wood]

The lower two badges would definitely appear to be from the same die.

[Chipper]

Originally Posted by High Wood

The lower two badges would definitely appear to be from the same die.

Hi

yep, they are both the silver ones, so I would expect there was only 1 die? Assuming 1 die could handle 5000 odd strikings. Even if there were more, they would presumably be very very close to each other.

Cheers, Tim

[KLR]

Frank, the information comes from personal detailed observation and measuring. There are one or two in the NAM collection too. As a private purchase, there must have been a number of manufacturers who will have different dies - I've only seen ones - a very few - all with gaps - but lets see how many Pals OSDs what Forum members have !

Incidentally I have gone over my eleven Pals badges (I will amend the photographs of Pals badges in my albums). Although I went through dies for all the other badges but this lot were closely dated by type. However, I've just one through all of them:


Silver - The Chester one has fairly shallow hackles. There are a few differences on the London = different dies
(all of the following badges all have very shallow hackles)


OSD - a different from all the others

1914 type (2 examples) - flat back - two different dies

1915 (die struck with NS loops) two examples - two different dies
(though I'm trying to obtain the one with hexagonal loops -not at the silly price on ebay).

1917 (die struck with slider, B&P) two examples (one marked, one unmarked) - both identical.

Another two 1917 types - (fairly similar to above) - two examples - both identical.


In my day job I spend a lot of time scrutinising different dies [of Roman coins]. As you will know, the way to discern different dies is going over the coin/badge with a magnifying glass or microscope.
I've found the perfect detail for Pals badges; the eagle's feet on the lattice on the cradle, though there a few more differing details.

[orasot]

Julian,
The Firmin one was mine, unmarked from the former Firmin employees collection I own. The badges were his samples to show as a salesman for the company. He visited the Regiments to show his wares you could say!! All the badges are unissued and mostly mint with original finish. Some had fixings altered but that's about it. Some are Firmin marked, some not and I think one was made by another company so subbed out. Fascinating stuff which some members have seen. I will get a pic for you, different to the Elkington I'd say,
Wilf

[KLR]

Wilf thanks, that's great. I remember now!
I hope you are keeping well
J

[orasot]

Here you go Julian

[orasot]

Reverse as well

[Frank Kelley]

Okay, that is very interesting, I don't think that I've ever seen a single officers badge by Firmin that was not die cast, I have certainly never seen an example that was die struck/stamped as you suggest and I have never seen an example that was significantly smaller than the rank and file badge, or, any with a void between the eagles legs.

Originally Posted by KLR

Frank, the information comes from personal detailed observation and measuring. There are one or two in the NAM collection too. As a private purchase, there must have been a number of manufacturers who will have different dies - I've only seen ones - a very few - all with gaps - but lets see how many Pals OSDs what Forum members have !

Incidentally I have gone over my eleven Pals badges (I will amend the photographs of Pals badges in my albums). Although I went through dies for all the other badges but this lot were closely dated by type. However, I've just one through all of them:


Silver - The Chester one has fairly shallow hackles. There are a few differences on the London = different dies
(all of the following badges all have very shallow hackles)


OSD - a different from all the others

1914 type (2 examples) - flat back - two different dies

1915 (die struck with NS loops) two examples - two different dies
(though I'm trying to obtain the one with hexagonal loops -not at the silly price on ebay).

1917 (die struck with slider, B&P) two examples (one marked, one unmarked) - both identical.

Another two 1917 types - (fairly similar to above) - two examples - both identical.


In my day job I spend a lot of time scrutinising different dies [of Roman coins]. As you will know, the way to discern different dies is going over the coin/badge with a magnifying glass or microscope.
I've found the perfect detail for Pals badges; the eagle's feet on the lattice on the cradle, though there a few more differing details.

[KLR]

I agree, Wilf's very nice Pattern 9483/1917 is a die struck OR badge.
Firmin very rarely stamped their name on OR badges - but I have officer's F marked which are almost the same as OR badges - albeit different manufacture etc.