Liverpool Pals silver v 1st pattern GM

[Chipper]

Hi All

so a recent thread threw up some interesting things for me. I was of the view that the Liverpool Pals silver presentation badge die was subsequently used for the 1st pattern die-cast OR badge, 8520/1915 (thank Julian)

So as I have them, and I seem to have some spare time, I thought I'd compare them. the 3 badges I am comparing are as such:

1) Silver Presentation badge, original lugs, London hallmarked
2) Silver Presentation badge, broach conversion, London hallmarked
3) GM 1st pattern 8520/1915

Sorry the pics are not always in the same order, my skills there are somewhat lacking, but as the question is: "are these badges all from the same die" I don't think it matters.

My untrained eye says it is likely they are, tiny differences (the eagles neck for example) could be put down to the GM one being subject to much more wear, or even simply the different metals used.

For completeness, they are all the same size, using a digital caliper (37mm x 37mm and the weights (not that this is important given the different metals & fittings) are 14.1g presentation lugs, 14.9g presentation pin & 12.4g GM.

So what do you think? What do they look like to you?

I am interested in a happy discussion that may not be conclusive, so would appreciate if there is disagreement, it is conducted in the spirit of the forum, that being tolerance.

Cheers, Tim

[Luke H]

Hi Tim,

I see what you mean about the neck and the lack of those toothlike feathers. Looking at the GM badge from the top are there any signs they’ve been filed or just not properly formed in the manufacturing process?

With a GM badge for ORs you’ve got added factor that loss of detail, widening of features etc. can be caused by excessive polishing and abrasion to those details.

Also any chance of a pic of each badge as a whole please?

Cheers,

Luke

[KLR]

Oh s**t, I wrote a long reponse but then dinner intervened and I think I've lost it
Will try again
J

[Chipper]

Hi Julian, I feel your pain, I do that often. Hopefully not lost, just misplaced.

Luke, see below, If the detail is not clear enough, I can take in the better light later, just let me know:

[mooke07]

Interesting thread chaps - as an aside best write responses in Word and cut and paste to the Forum and enable auto save - we shouldn’t lose work that way, cheers Dean.

[Chipper]

...and the top of the eagle, to my eyes, no signs of filling or wear really. So maybe it's not the same die?

Cheers, Tim

[Chipper]

photo

[KLR]

OK Tim here you are - are you nice and safe in your nice part of the world?


My understanding is as follows. The silver badges were presented at various dates in late 1914 (suggesting a staggered production?). They were made by Elkingtons in Birmingham, but they were assayed (firstly) in Chester then in London. I guess that there were about 5,000 made??? (The actual figures are in two archives but I haven’t got around to that yet). In a batch of say 5k – how often would new dies be needed. But the design would be as close as possible. Incidentally, Maddocks was wrong in stating that they were assayed in Birmingham and London. There were a number of HM brooches from B'ham of near style and metal – mostly made by RC – probably Richard Chandler.


In June 1917 the National (later Imperial) War Museum wrote to every unit asking what badges (all types) they wore and – if possibly, could they send examples. Not surprisingly, many units didn’t respond – they were a tad busy. I only looked up the KLR battalions but I know a couple of people on the Forum have gone to look as well.


The NWMus correspondence also noted that these were “not made officially but by local contract”. Anyway, an officer of the 19th provided a detailed account, briefly noting the silver ones but wrote that “A bronze badge being afterwards worn to avoid loss of the original badge.” Also corroborating the NWM that these badges were “not at first issued by the Ordnance Department but was manufactured locally.” His description of bronze is clearly a mistake for GM or brass that was “bronzed” which was the WO term for this patina (cf Household Cav and Yeo badges).


I presume that they made a similar number as the silvers and we need to look at die numbers – in any case dies for differing metals – ie silver and GM/brass.
The bronze OSD are slightly smaller than the silver and service badges. I have been told that a Firmin stamped example exists but I don’t know how many other makers were also involved. I still maintain that officer’s badges (cap and collar) had a void in between the eagle’s legs. I imagine that contemporary photographs would not necessarily have enough detail to reveal a void. I should go back to the IWM and other contemporary collection and get a photograph!

I’ve given details of the ORs 2nd badge / 1st official (Patt 8520/1915) and the 3rd badge / 2nd official badge (Patt 9483/1917). There are a number of the 3rd / 2nd stamped B P & CO LD. B’HAM – who were Bodill Parker & Co Ltd. Contracted to the Bd of Trade to manufacture badges throughout 1915, much of 1916 and in January and August of 1917.


As for “fakes” – I'm very suspicious of the one stamped THOMAS FATTORINI (they still exist and I'd like to go and see their archives some time) ! and the version where the ‘tail’ of the chapeau extends to the scroll.

[JerryBB]

my gm example has the neck feathers

[Chipper]

As always, I appreciate both your time and expertise, Julian.

Ok, so it sounds like the dies are likely not the same, but possibly both made by Elkingtons, hence the similarity?
All id OK here, plenty of baguettes and cheese to see us through...

Cheers, Tim

[Chipper]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

my gm example has the neck feathers

Thanks Jerry, i didn't see that before I posted... it's the die-cast one, yes?

Cheers, Tim

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Chipper

Thanks Jery, i didn't see that before I posted... it's the die-cast one, yes?

Cheers, Tim

I believe it is the first pattern cast OR's badge not in silver, it has been brooched.

[Frank Kelley]

Looking at the photographs, I would say they are not from the same die and like you, I don't think it matters either.

Originally Posted by Chipper

Hi All

so a recent thread threw up some interesting things for me. I was of the view that the Liverpool Pals silver presentation badge die was subsequently used for the 1st pattern die-cast OR badge, 8520/1915 (thank Julian)

So as I have them, and I seem to have some spare time, I thought I'd compare them. the 3 badges I am comparing are as such:

1) Silver Presentation badge, original lugs, London hallmarked
2) Silver Presentation badge, broach conversion, London hallmarked
3) GM 1st pattern 8520/1915

Sorry the pics are not always in the same order, my skills there are somewhat lacking, but as the question is: "are these badges all from the same die" I don't think it matters.

My untrained eye says it is likely they are, tiny differences (the eagles neck for example) could be put down to the GM one being subject to much more wear, or even simply the different metals used.

For completeness, they are all the same size, using a digital caliper (37mm x 37mm and the weights (not that this is important given the different metals & fittings) are 14.1g presentation lugs, 14.9g presentation pin & 12.4g GM.

So what do you think? What do they look like to you?

I am interested in a happy discussion that may not be conclusive, so would appreciate if there is disagreement, it is conducted in the spirit of the forum, that being tolerance.

Cheers, Tim

[Frank Kelley]

I think that is a particularly nice example with a degree of finer detail, was it expensive?

Originally Posted by JBBOND

my gm example has the neck feathers

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

I think that is a particularly nice example with a degree of finer detail, was it expensive?

thanks Frank, no, it was about a fiver if memory serves me right, from a well known seller in an antiques market who is always sensibly prized. He does not always get it right on selling authentic items, but does most of the time and has a very good returns policy.