1926 pattern AA KLR Collars

[Paul Spellman]

I don't think these pop up very often so thought I would show here.
Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Paul,

Very nice.

Worn by 5th Kings and the short lived "R" (Kings/Liverpool Scottish) Battery R.A. 1967-68 ( see MHS Bulletin November 1997).

Churchill says ( bottom of page 49 ) that they were also worn by Liverpool University OTC but I am not sure that he is right.

Peter

[Mike H]

Yes . Very nice pair of collars

[KLR]

Paul what (exact) size are they and what type of fitting do they have on the back.
I ask because I have a lot of WO correspondence about these collars and should be able to give you a pretty precise date.


BTW Peter, I think you are right. I have gone through the CCNs and COSAs for LUOTC badges and there is NOTHING about any form of collar badge (though we know to never say never !)
J

[Paul Spellman]

Thanks All,
Julian, the size of the collars are 34mm x 34mm the image shows the rear with a single fitting
Cheers
Paul

[Paul Spellman]

Rear image

[Alan O]

Just because there is no documentaion is not there does not mean Churchill was wrong. You will not find it in any documentation but Southampton OTC used to hold a small amount No 2 dress uniforms. Rarely issued but were used for funerals and courses if reqd. These had Wessex collars as they were the local Inf Regt. I would not be surprised if LUOTC had a similiar arrangement.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Just because there is no documentaion is not there does not mean Churchill was wrong. You will not find it in any documentation but Southampton OTC used to hold a small amount No 2 dress uniforms. Rarely issued but were used for funerals and courses if reqd. These had Wessex collars as they were the local Inf Regt. I would not be surprised if LUOTC had a similiar arrangement.

Its a minefield, please correct me if my recall is bad. Aberdeen wore a small gold version of the hat badge,but was only for the band. Tayforth pipes and drums wear a small silver version of the St Andrews badge. Bham wore a silver collar,its no longer worn. Sheffield wore a small gold shield ,not sure if its still worn.

[Peter Brydon]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Just because there is no documentaion is not there does not mean Churchill was wrong. You will not find it in any documentation but Southampton OTC used to hold a small amount No 2 dress uniforms. Rarely issued but were used for funerals and courses if reqd. These had Wessex collars as they were the local Inf Regt. I would not be surprised if LUOTC had a similiar arrangement.

Alan,

Couldn't agree more which is why I said "but I am not sure that he is right. and KLR said "(though we know to never say never !)
J "

However, I have never seen any collar badges being worn in any photographs of the unit that have appeared in any of the Kings Regiment magazines that I have and an ex member of the OTC who was a member in the 1970`s does not recall any collar badges being worn.

The LUOTC No2 dress uniform that I once owned had white cadets tabs on the collars so no collar badges.

If anyone has evidence of the OTC wearing the anodised collars I would be very interested to hear.


Peter

[KLR]

I’m sorry about the delay in getting back to this – it’s been one of those weeks !

I find that I have a lot of information on the ‘1926 Pattern’ BM collar badge was actually sealed in February 1927 as Patt 10054. Then there is a lot about the new BM one introduced in 1950 (along with the new smaller cap badge) which was to be 1 ¼” in height and width ( ie 32mm). There is an interesting note that records that when these were declared obsolete with the formation of the new Kings M & L, all patterns were to be sent to the CO 5th Bn. In 1962 the WO noted that they had 900 pairs of (BM) Kings collars which they were happy to sell to the 5th Bn.
Incidentally the single flat lug was introduced on 1st March 1951.


Anyway, the first mention of AA collar badges was in June 1962 when a prototype for the 5th Bn was approved, but there is no information on their size. They were finally sealed in 1964 – but I assume that they were only worn up to 1967.
So, I assume yours are this type ! I can’t find a Pattern number but the CCN catalogue reference was CB3452.


Looking at previous decisions however, it is not impossible that surviving supplies may have been passed on to the LU OTC ??

Regarding the OTC, the IWM has a card of authorised badges for the unit which only has a cap badge (AA), arm title and three (AA KC !) buttons; large, small and cap. Regretably there is no date but the 1950 Patt cap badge has a seeded scroll which dates it to between 1964 and 1971. COSA 1978 mentions a King’s cap badge for the unit but I can’t identify any collar badges there.

[Peter Brydon]

KLR,

According to the late Tony Moore ( who was C.O. of the unit ) the anodised collars were also worn by Kings element of the short lived "R" (Kings/Liverpool Scottish) Battery R.A. 1967-68 ( see MHS Bulletin November 1997).

Peter

[Paul Spellman]

Thanks Julian for your time looking up the official refs.and Peter for the R bat info.
I will try myself to look up another avenue (Mather) to find out if at all possible the LUOTC did in fact wear the collars.
It is surprising the discussion a pair of AA collars from less than 50 years ago can bring up.
Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Paul,

Good luck if you contact Mather Avenue.

The June 1951 edition of the Kingsman magazine has a picture and some notes on the Liverpool University Training Corps as it was known at the time.

The picture shows the cadets, officers and PSI`s all in battledress and there is mention of a new WRAC Company at the unit as well as Signals and REME sections. All the cadets are wearing Kings Liverpool cap badges but I wonder if the WRACs did as well ?

Going by a picture of a LUSTC title with arm of service stripe ( attached ) it appears that the unit may have had an RAMC section as well at one time.

Peter

[KLR]

Peter, I'd be v grateful for a scan of the Tony Moore article. Somewhere I have a copy of his 1997 article on King's T Bns but that was published in Stand To.

The photograph is interesting, they are, of course, still wearing the 1926 Pattern.

The mention of the 2/ic Major Routledge rings a bell ! He was commissioned into the 16th (Training) Bn along with my grandfather in 1915. He later wrote a short history of the LUOTC (but no, it doesn't mention badges !).

[KLR]

I know this is straying off topic a little but here is a photograph of the LUOTC in the early 1930s when my grandfather was OC.

It's interesting to see that some are still wearing the 1896 pattern badge !