Queen's Puggaree/Collar Badge

[Jelly Terror]

Thought I'd share this find, depicting what appears to be a Queen's collar badge in this infantryman's puggaree:



It brought to mind a badge Nozzer has here, in his 'The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) Badges and Buttons' album.

I wonder if Nozzer's badge could be a collar badge modified for the FSH?

Regards,

JT

[Alan O]

Great photo. That's not an OR's collar badge but he is clearly an OR.

The non-voided halo is also clear.

This is the collar with a much smaller scroll.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=136825

The longer scroll indeed matches the longer officers collar. Any date on the photo? Is it a WW1 TF Bn or a 1920s regular bn in India?

1908 belt with shorts with possibly locally made jacket with stand-collar. The badge on the side of the FSH is unusual. Pre 1924 pattern but could well be still in use a few years later.

[Alan O]

The 2nd Bn Queens were in India 1920-6.

There are several photos of the Bn in FSH here:

http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk...ndia38_1.html#

They are all wearing the usual Queen's diamond patch with embroidered Queen's title.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Great photo. That's not an OR's collar badge but he is clearly an OR.

The non-voided halo is also clear.

This is the collar with a much smaller scroll.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ctureid=136825

The longer scroll indeed matches the longer officers collar. Any date on the photo? Is it a WW1 TF Bn or a 1920s regular bn in India?

1908 belt with shorts with possibly locally made jacket with stand-collar. The badge on the side of the FSH is unusual. Pre 1924 pattern but could well be still in use a few years later.

As is unfortunately the case with these photos, no inscription/date to make life easier for us. Our man does have a (cloth) wound stripe and good conduct chevron - I'm not familiar with the regs which saw the phasing out of these items of insignia... could their presence in the photo help us to date it?



JT

[Nozzer]

Superb image Jelly T.

There is much to be learnt from these old photographs, thanks for sharing.

Noz.

[Alan O]

The soldier is not the 1st Bn as they were not in India between 1908 and the late 1920s when the belt/badge were in use:

1908 Aden
1910 England: Warley
1912 Borden 3 Bde
1914.08 France and Flanders 1 Div
1914.11 France and Flanders I Corps
1915.07 France and Flanders 2 Div
1915.12 France and Flanders 33 Div
1919 England: Aldershot
1920 Ireland: Kilworth
1921 1st Battalion, The Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey)
1923 England: Aldershot 6 Bde
1925 Dover 10 Bde
1927 China: Shanghai
1928 Hong Kong

The soldier would be a likely contendor to be from 1/4th TF or 1/5th TF Bns according to the LLT website which records the RWS TF Bn's locations in India in WW1:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/...rrey-regiment/

[Alan O]

All you need to know:

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldi...-wound-stripe/

Wound stripes were Post 1916.

GC stripes were earned after 2 year's service. If he was TF sodleir then he could earn this for 2 year's mobilised service. Assuming a Sep 14 mobilisation this could be earned as early as Sep 1916.

[grenadierguardsman]

Excellent photo, with good detail. Just goes to show what was actually worn to what apparently should be worn.
Andy

[Alan O]

Thinking about it with no medal ribbons and without any overseas service chevrons this photo must date between Sep 16 and 1919 and is more than likely to be a TF soldier. If he was a 2nd Bn regular on garrison duty from 1920 then he would have medal ribbons to go with the wound stripe.

[Jelly Terror]

Great stuff, Alan. Thanks for the links too. Very helpful.

[Alan O]

What I can't find is when wound stripes were discontinued. I suspect 1919 but then we know the photo pre dates that anyway. It's a brilliant photo.

The fact that Regular Bn were not supposed to wear metal badges reinforces the view that this was a TF practice in India where they had room for regtl practice! I wonder if it is a locally made cast badge made under regtl arrangements. It's quite possible that they took an officer's collar to the bazaar and had these pagri ones made.

What a great photo though. have you considered putting t on the great war forum and seeing what they think about the uniform?

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

What I can't find is when wound stripes were discontinued. I suspect 1919 but then we know the photo pre dates that anyway. It's a brilliant photo.

The fact that Regular Bn were not supposed to wear metal badges reinforces the view that this was a TF practice in India where they had room for regtl practice! I wonder if it is a locally made cast badge made under regtl arrangements. It's quite possible that they took an officer's collar to the bazaar and had these pagri ones made.

What a great photo though. have you considered putting t on the great war forum and seeing what they think about the uniform?

No, I hadn't thought about the GWF.

Here we go:

The wearing when in uniform of silver war badges, wound stripes and chevrons denoting service overseas, introduced during the Great War, was discontinued under AO 434 of 1922.

IMG_0693.jpg

[tonyb]

Great photograph, I note that the badge is worn on the side of the helmet, is this the norm?
Cheers Tony.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by tonyb

Great photograph, I note that the badge is worn on the side of the helmet, is this the norm?
Cheers Tony.

Good question, Tony. You'd normally see the cloth flash on the side, wouldn't you?

[tonyb]

JT that's what I thought!!!
Tony.