Pagri badges

[davec2]

You are right about the fragmented threads David, I can't find the post where someone said that FSH had a slot for the slider to fit into, or was I dreaming ?

Dave.

PS, As an aside David, I see that you think Iain's long slidered QVC Devonshire Pagri badge looks promising ?? so you agree to the fact that there are/were metal FSH badges ??

Dave.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by davec2

You are right about the fragmented threads David, I can't find the post where someone said that FSH had a slot for the slider to fit into, or was I dreaming ?

Dave.

PS, As an aside David, I see that you think Iain's long slidered QVC Devonshire Pagri badge looks promising ?? so you agree to the fact that there are/were metal FSH badges ??

Dave.

Firstly not all metal badges worn with the FSH, were slotted into the pagri at all, but were often fitted higher up above the pagri, which brings into question what was the badge fitting? Without actually examining a genuine museum example or examples, this then brings into question the belief that all FSH badges were fitted with long sliders as being pure speculation.

I'll try and bring into this debate some photographs showing badges being worn with the FSH from other Forums, with due acknowledgement.

[Graham Stewart]

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Bugler Cameronians - with thanks to the "Gentlemans Military Interest Club"

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14th Hussars - with thanks to the "Great War Forum"

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2nd Bn, Derbyshire Regt - with thanks to "Soldiers of the Queen"

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2nd Bn, Lincolnshire Regt, with glengarry badge in pagri - with thanks to "Soldiers of the Queen"

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Kings Royal Rifles - with thanks to "Soldiers of the Queen"

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R.Inniskilling Fusiliers - The "J.Sheen Collection"

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Pte Joe Stretton, Welch Regt, lovely badge here with backing - with thanks to "Soldiers of the Queen"

Hopefully our friends here can see that with the FSH, all is not how it seems and you have to look further for your answers.

[Graham Stewart]

Please take a looke at this selection of FSH's and you have to agree, your metal badges are in the minority;-
http://www.servicepub.com/wolseley.htm

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Plus one for the North Staffs

[Fatherofthree]

Graham.

Marvellous set of piccies, many thanks for posting.

It does tend to show that a large number of Regiments wore a flash as opposed to a badge, however, it doesn't make clear how the badges, as opposed to the flashes, were fixed, so the debate can still continue in respect of long sliders or whatever.

It does show that one of them, however, was fixed by E/W lugs.

Regards

Brian

[GriffMJ]

I would like to see some 1st/2nd Boer War examples

** Ahhh just seen (didnt see the ones you added Graham), very nice examples.

[Graham Stewart]

For you that are interested primarily with South Africa

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Cpl James Osborne, V.C. serving with the Mounted Infantry of the 58th Foot. Complete with shako plate

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Either Welch Regt or North Staffs full H.S. helmet plate here.

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Captain Hebden, Essex Regt - nice shot of the regimental title here.

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Bertam Noel Dennison - 2nd Bn,KOYLI

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Gunner, R.A. - taken India possibly bound for S.A. Helmet appears plain

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Another possiblr gunner or MI - helmet appears to be plain.

All of these photo's are with thanks to "Soldiers of the Queen", which is possibly one of the best photographic uniform sites on the net.

I'll trawl around for other Boer War photo's. Another good source for period uniforms is the Fosten Brothers "The Thin Red Line", which is full of coloured plates following the evolvement of British Army uniforms.

[CftD]

Originally Posted by davec2

You are right about the fragmented threads David, I can't find the post where someone said that FSH had a slot for the slider to fit into, or was I dreaming ?

Dave.

PS, As an aside David, I see that you think Iain's long slidered QVC Devonshire Pagri badge looks promising ?? so you agree to the fact that there are/were metal FSH badges ??

Dave.

Dave - I certainly do, although I also recognise that there is a flood of fakes around at the present time. David

[KLR]

You will NOT find the description "pagri badge" anywhere in any WO document. There are references to metal badges being worn on the Foreign Service Helmet (FSH) and the item known officially as the 'Service Dress Hat' or the 'Universal Headdress' (more commonly known as the 'slouch' or 'bush' hat.
In the vast documentation about metal badges introduced for the Field Service Cap (FSC, ie side cap, then for the peaked forage cap) they are invariably sealed for use on BOTH the FSC AND the FSH.
There is no mention of this badge being worn on the slouch. That hat was intended to have adapted (ie slidered) HPCs - for which a socket (Pattern 5797/1902) was introduced. As I said earlier, the idea does not seem to have taken off (an expensive mistake) BUT there seems to be evidence that metal "cap badges" were worn in such a socket.

I personally think the QVC badge with a slider is some sort of mistake or later adaptation.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by KLR

You will NOT find the description "pagri badge" anywhere in any WO document. There are references to metal badges being worn on the Foreign Service Helmet (FSH) and the item known officially as the 'Service Dress Hat' or the 'Universal Headdress' (more commonly known as the 'slouch' or 'bush' hat.
In the vast documentation about metal badges introduced for the Field Service Cap (FSC, ie side cap, then for the peaked forage cap) they are invariably sealed for use on BOTH the FSC AND the FSH.
There is no mention of this badge being worn on the slouch. That hat was intended to have adapted (ie slidered) HPCs - for which a socket (Pattern 5797/1902) was introduced. As I said earlier, the idea does not seem to have taken off (an expensive mistake) BUT there seems to be evidence that metal "cap badges" were worn in such a socket.

I personally think the QVC badge with a slider is some sort of mistake or later adaptation.

So are you saying that the long slidered badges were for the Slouch Hat and not the FSH, given that the latter was not fitted with the socket you have quoted?

[KLR]

No, I didn't say 'long slidered badges' (I mean 'long slidered HPCs') but yes, the sockets were specified for the slouch, there is no mention of them for the FSH. (I will go into much greater detail in a book one day !)
What is clear from your excellent photographs is that many badges are affixed to the helmet itself, above the puggaree. Photographs of the King's Regt in South Africa show them being worn like this.

[Graham Stewart]

A few snaps of Mounted Infantry from four Boer War albums that were reproduced for the Gentlemans Military Interest Club and for whom I give thanks for being able to reproduce them here.

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Members of the 18th M.I. picking their mounts - A closer look appears to show a tartan patch on the side of the FSH. As the owner originally served with the Seaforths contingent of this unit, then it is possible that's who they are.

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Members of the Black Watch contingent, 12th M.I. in their slouch hats - Although not plainly visible here a closer look, appears to show what would be their red hackle protruding.

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Sgt Major Ashton, 12th M.I. wearing the FSH, with no visible insignia.

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An interesting shot of both the Doctor & Vet of 12th M.I., wearing both variations of the FSH. Again no insignia visible.

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Lovely shot of the C/O Darmants Horse sporting a "lemon" squeazer complete with Leopard skin pagri.

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An officer group of 12th M.I. again showing both patterns of FSH being worn. One to the right has an unidentified cloth patch on the left hand side of his.

[Charlie585]

--

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by KLR

You will NOT find the description "pagri badge" anywhere in any WO document. There are references to metal badges being worn on the Foreign Service Helmet (FSH) and the item known officially as the 'Service Dress Hat' or the 'Universal Headdress' (more commonly known as the 'slouch' or 'bush' hat.
In the vast documentation about metal badges introduced for the Field Service Cap (FSC, ie side cap, then for the peaked forage cap) they are invariably sealed for use on BOTH the FSC AND the FSH.
There is no mention of this badge being worn on the slouch. That hat was intended to have adapted (ie slidered) HPCs - for which a socket (Pattern 5797/1902) was introduced. As I said earlier, the idea does not seem to have taken off (an expensive mistake) BUT there seems to be evidence that metal "cap badges" were worn in such a socket.

I personally think the QVC badge with a slider is some sort of mistake or later adaptation.

KLR - firstly may I apologise if it appears that I'm at war over your research work, which I am not. As a researcher myself I have the greatest respect for those who follow this hobby more seriously, bringing a lot more to the attention of those who collect.

All I am(and perhaps Toby) are trying to demonstrate, is that the military in general is notorious for asking for changes to clothing, equipment and accoutrements, which despite being patented, may actually never be taken into wear or use. One which springs to mind was the earlier pattern of universal service dress which although produced and worn by a "demonstration" battalion, never ever saw the light of day.

I also recall from the MHS Bulletin some years ago an order from the 1930's bringing into effect the use of ciivilian clothing for walking out. When the same order reached a battalion of the Durham Light Infantry in the China Station, the C/O refused point blank to allow his men to adopt civvies and wrote on that same order in heavy pen "NOT IN THIS BATTALION".

I think you'll appreciate and understand that the same applied to badges and various patterns of head-dress, and as such they may have proved not to be practical and therefore were never applied, despite what regulattions may have said. Sometimes you find items of equipment etc, being rescinded by the inclusion in Army Orders, War Office and Army Council Instructions.

Anyway here's hoping you'll understand this is not a campaign against you or your work and that you'll accept my apology.

[GriffMJ]

I have some good pictures from the 4th Btn/7th Sqn (Leics Imp Yeo) in South Africa.

The last pic on the right is a Grenadier Guard Officer.