5th Royal Highlanders - Imaginitive eBay posting

[Adam H]

This is the second time this "pagri patch" has appeared on ebay in the past few weeks.

The first seller, based in the UK, listed it with a similar description...I e-mailed him informing him it was not a pagri patch at all, but a cut up epaulette from a pre-WWI coatee/tunic. He elected not to acknowledge my e-mail.

The current seller (winner of the above auction) has listed it with a similar description. Seems to be attracting some bids.

Would hate to see one of you caught out thinking this was a rare item...when it's nothing more but a snippet from a vandalized tunic. Hopefully the tunic was in a sad state, and someone "saved" the epaulettes and buttons...

As far as I am aware there is no Pagri patch worn by the 5th RHC in their history.

Here is the link to the auction, for those interested:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=013

Cheers,

Adam

[GregN]

Hi Adam, I know this seller well and he wont care at all.

Cheers,

Greg

BTW why not post some of your 5 RHC stuff, I'd love to see it and share the few badges I have with the rest of the forum.

[guest_000]

Have challenged this dealer on bogus item before and true he did not care even though I was correct and proved it to him beyond a shadow of a doubt being FAKE cef arty badges. But if enough people contact him he will react.

Isn't there a clue in the photograph that this item is not as it is being described ? The edge above the '5' is a clear seamed edge whereas the lower edge has been crudely cut - and not even sheared. Potential bidders must be crazy if they are taken in by this. However, there is another possible explanation for the bidding - despite the description in the listing, collectors may (in their own minds) be bidding for a rare shoulder title. How many times have we seen mis-described eBay listings but bid all the same because WE knew exactly what the item was ? Let us not jump to conclusions about WHY folk bid on eBay and it is always nice to be several steps ahead of the seller - isn't it ? Regards - and let's be careful out there ! David

[servicepub]

Apropos nothing who is ebay vendor 'tobins29th'?

[servicepub]

Although the photo of the Sergeant is from c.1920 it is obvious that the style of pugaree (pagri) patch worn by the RHC consisted of a tartan patch and the 5RHC badge, topped with the hackle.


Contemporary photo courtesy of the Black Watch Regimental Museum. Wolseley helmet courtesy of http://www.servicepub.com/wolseley.htm

[guest_000]

Great photos AND INFORMATION .
And David you are so correct a buyer may be bidding just for the item as is who are we to say

[Adam H]

Great photos. Yes I should have remembered the tartan swatch worn on the pith helmet. Cheers for that.

Thanks for the heads up about the seller. If anyone cares to PM me the name, I'll file it in my head for posterity. Probably know of them already...just not their ebay monicker.

Greg, I did a thread early on in the forum's life and got no replies! Maybe I'll dig out some other stuff and add to it...

Adam

[Bill A]

For reference, here is a link to Adam's earlier posting of 5th Royal Scots and the Black Watch, The Royal Highland Regiment of Canada badges.
5th Royal Scots
The Black Watch of Canada

[Bill A]

For reference here are 4 scarlet tunic epaulettes for the 5th Royal Scots of Canada, later the 5th Royal Highlanders of Canada. From left to right, the 5th Royal Scots of Canada, pre 1906. The next two are for the 5th Royal Highlanders of Canada, one in white thread embroidery, and the other silver bullion wire. The final epaulette, on the right, has had the "5" picked out. It maybe have been worn post 1920, after the unit was redesignated the Royal Highlanders of Canada.

Bill - An impressive showing of eppaulettes. In my view these items are often a neglected area of interest but are as relevant as any rare brass or white metal shoulder title. The annoying thing is that, often, they come attached to a perfectly good tunic and to cut them off is to destroy one hisorical artifact in favour of another. A dilemma ! Regards. David

[Bill A]

Right you are David. Time was that the insignia was far more interesting than the uniform. When I first started collecting about 30 years ago, many uniforms were simply garbaged, sometimes after the badges were removed and unfortunately, sometimes without them being removed.
Today, it is quite a dilema. So few uniforms of WW2 and WW1 vintage remain, that they are important artefacts in themselves. Even more so with the appropriate badges and patches on the tunic, as they were worn.
The only time that I remove insignia any more, is when the tunic is beyond salvage or repair. The epaulettes in this case were traded for from another collector. Guilt free, I guess.

[GregN]

Hi Adam, ah yes, I remember the first posting of you officers 5th RHC badge. I've just had a chub, the second time on seeing it again! It was the promise of "more to come" that provoked me to ask for additional scans of your stuff.

Bill, I seem to recall a plethora of 79th shoulderstraps that came onto the market a few years back. I picked up an example form Wayne C but can't remember where Wayne said they were from. I think he said damaged uniforms from a museum??

Greg

[Bill A]

Hi Greg, my information was band tunics being disposed.

[Adam H]

Bill, nice examples, thanks for sharing.

Not sure about the 79th shoulderstraps, but the RHC museum disposed of a large number of obsolete uniforms, etc some years back. The red doublets are fairly common on the market for that reason. Some of the items available were Officer and O/R doublets, ostrich bonnets, patrols and other bits as well.

There was still quite the pile left...some newer band uniforms and a mix of other items, mostly in lesser conditions.

As Bill points out in his post, it's quite common to see the "5" picked out as these tunics were indeed used past 1920 when the regimental designation changed. I would say boards/tunics with the 5 intact are more scarce...as are the 5/RHC shoulder titles as many were cut down and used much later.

In any case, the chopped up epaulette I first mentioned sold for $50+ USD. I think the buyer is known to some here. I don't know them personally, but perhaps a kind member that does would consider a courtesy email to let them know they've bought something that's been misrepresented.