Maori badge ?

[jim a]

I picked this badge up as part of a 6 badge deal... 5 badges were Canadian ,and I'm comfortable dealing with those, but I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to New zealand badges. I'm leaning towards this being a restrike as it looks to new for a WW1 badge, it has a flat back with a bit of a domed look to it. Would appreciate any info on this badge . Thanks JIm

[jim a]

[pukman]

Hello Jim,I have three of these badges in my collection,and a further 3 with NZNC(New Zealand Native Corp) stamped at the base instead of NZ.They all have the same flat backs as yours.The yellowish colour is a gilt wash ,so possiblity that badge was unissued ,but genuine.The moari battalion had three incarnations during W.W.1,Firstly as the NZNC at Gallopoli and the Middle East,Then it was changed to the New Zealand poineer battalion,when they were sent to France in 1916.The unit was then again changed to New Zealand Moari poineer battalion and your badge was worn from September 1917 till april 1919.


cheers Iain

[jim a]

Ian... thanks so much for the reply.... I have the book Badges and Insignia of the new Zealand Army by Oldham and in the introduction he was talking about copies having a flat back etc . Not having very many NZ badges i had nothing to reference against. Glad to see mine is like your 3 badges. Thanks Again Jim

[wairua]

Hi Jim, I have a badge that looks to be the same as yours but to my mind too many have appeared for sale over the past few months (both NZ and NZNC) so I'm not sure about my own one any more.

I'll still keep it as a space filler for now, but as this was never that big a unit my suspicions are growing.

Wairua

[jim a]

I picked this badge up from the same antique dealer that I got the Maori pioneer badge i'd posted earlier in this forum. As these were the only two NZ badges he had and they were both Maori I like my chances that they are both good.

[wairua]

The Pioneer cap badge has definitely been widely faked, even have dodgy ones from at least two different manufacturers myself.

I've only ever seen one set of collar dogs though, so I presume they were genuine (but unfortunately not mine).

I guess badges of Maori design are also more likely to be faked as they may seem more exotic to buyers, especially those outside NZ.

With these 2 or 3 exceptions, I do think fake NZ badges are still less of an issue than those from many other countries though.

[atillathenunns]

Jim, I totally agree with Wairua, you gotta ask the question when you see the same shinny, almost “NEW” looking badge turning up regularly on greEd Bay!

Sadly we must face the fact that all NZ Maori Battalion and Pioneer badges have been heavily reproduced.

The old copies are relatively easy to spot, but the ones that have been turning up in the last couple of years are almost better than the originals, right down to the casting marks and slightly concaved reverse.

IMO the only way to tell is by comparing it with a known original badge.

Iain, NZNC(New Zealand Native Corp) flat backs?
Are you talking about the small (“A Company”) or large (“B Company”) lettered NZNC badge.
I am pretty sure the B Company ones were only ever die stamped, and the A Company badges including the small collars are all Watts maker marked.



Brent

[atillathenunns]

[pukman]

Brent,i base my assumptions that Jims badge is an original, that i have owned 5 original ones purchased from leading badge dealers,and they all have the characteristics,i.e same imprints on back,same lugs etc..I have several other badges(infantry,M.R,corps) etc that still have the gilt wash laquer on them .Its my understanding that these corps/regimental badges had this laquer on at issue to stop corrosiveness,but it wore off over time.The badges with the laquer still on them were probably unissued and therefore ''mint''.Then in the 1970's the NZDF sold off its surplus stock which had been in storage for 50 years,which in turn flooded the collectors market.So they are in fact genuine period made badges,just not period worn.

[atillathenunns]

Iain, I have heard the same gilt wash Lacquer story before, but does it fit the badge that Jim has posted.
Although Jims badge is a bit blurry, it does not seem to have the gilt high spots to the raised parts on the front of the badge, which is usually encountered with such badges. (The badge just seems to new looking and very yellow to me)
As I mentioned earlier, it has got to a point where the only way to tell is by putting it next to a known original for comparison.
As this is not possible for a lot of collectors, I have done the next best thing, that is, supply detailed pictures of a known original, so collectors can make an informed decision for themselves.

Brent

[saumua]

This is correct.

The 4th pattern Maori Battalion badges with NZ on it was made in volume and sold in large bags to deallers as surplus (war stopped and the regiment was never reformed. They went out into collections and are doing the rounds again. The Pioneers badge with solid necklace is being made in the UK (looks like from an old FIRMIN die as the stricke is grainy). They have sliders with makers marks (2 makers) which is not right for these badges.

http://www.britishbadge.co.uk/produc...oducts_id=1195

Shaun

P.S. I found out today that the Cook island badges were worn by the Rarotongan Home guard in WW2!!!!

[atillathenunns]

Shaun, I am still looking forward to your article on the Maori Battalion badges that you mentioned on the MilitariaNZ web site.
I must admit it has inspired my own research into the subject, which is nearing completion. Just a few more documents such as the unit diaries to sift through and then finding period photographs to support what was worn.

I have even managed to find who designed the badge for the Maori Contingent, as well as identify the badge as worn by the Fiji contingent.

Interesting that you mention the fake Pioneers badge. Just last week an early copy (Solid cast) Pioneers badge sold on our local auction site “Trade-me” for $205 (New Zealand dollars). This was after Iain and I had posted warning comments as to its authenticity. (Photo of the badge is below).


Heres an example of an original NZ Pioneers badge. Note that it is missing its necklace, the Maori members of the Pioneer Battalion due to Maori superstition typically removed these.

[atillathenunns]

Heres an original example of the so-called “B” Company badge. (Note that it is clealy die stamped)
Also Note – very good copies of this badge (solid backs) with very similar metal colouring as Jims Badge are currently also offered on our NZ auction site “Trade-me”.





Brent

[saumua]

Brent,

From what I have seen the copies on trademe from Invercagill seem to have the rounder crown not the imperial crown like this example.

Shaun