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  #1  
Old 06-02-14, 07:29 PM
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Default NZ reinforcement numerals

Having just witnessed a fiery debate on New Zealand reinforcement numeral badges sold as Australian territorial numerals on the Australian section of the forum ,it raises the question which constitutes which .Unfortunately I have never really collected the NZ numerals as there has always been bigger fish to fry. I have a small sample that were in the effects of my Grand father who was a WW1 veteran .Having seen and handled a few over the years however I don't recall them having the indents between the numbers of the ones being sold recently (which are also stamped Stokes and sons ,Melbourne) .So what is what ??

Show us your reinforcement numerals and lets work this one out and clear up the confusion

Cheers Iain

1st pic my lot (no makers marks)
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Last edited by pukman; 06-02-14 at 07:37 PM.
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  #2  
Old 06-02-14, 07:40 PM
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Hi Iain,
I don't have many numeral badges but agree with your comments about the indents. I do have "18"s with just a single joining bar in the middle or at the bottom.
My "20" is unlike yours, it has just the one joining bar in the centre.
Cheers, Tinto
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  #3  
Old 07-02-14, 05:41 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukman View Post
Having just witnessed a fiery debate on New Zealand reinforcement numeral badges sold as Australian territorial numerals on the Australian section of the forum ,it raises the question which constitutes which .Unfortunately I have never really collected the NZ numerals as there has always been bigger fish to fry. I have a small sample that were in the effects of my Grand father who was a WW1 veteran .Having seen and handled a few over the years however I don't recall them having the indents between the numbers of the ones being sold recently (which are also stamped Stokes and sons ,Melbourne) .So what is what ??

Show us your reinforcement numerals and lets work this one out and clear up the confusion

Cheers Iain

1st pic my lot (no makers marks)
A lot of talk with no proof supplied
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  #4  
Old 07-02-14, 07:03 PM
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I have bought badges off ''Viligans'' and he kindly supplied me with photo's of his Australian metal and cloth insignia .I 'm sure he knows what he is talking about in the Australian line .(see the Australian section, under General and of the same title thread as my own)

What I would like to establish is if these ''Stokes and sons'' numerals were worn by NZ reinforcements as he says ,as they differ from what I would call the archetypical reinforcement shoulder numerals ,that I have seen .

No doubting some NZ shoulder titles were made by Stokes however (but not many)

Last edited by pukman; 07-02-14 at 07:52 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-02-14, 01:23 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Stokes did supply some shoulder titles and badges to NZ Reinforcements, all of which are known such as the Stokes made NZMC badges and the NZMGS shoulder titles.
That is why it is a bit of a surprise that Vigilans has made claims that the Stokes numerals were made for NZ Reinforcements, as everybody knows NZ Reinforcement shoulder numerals were made by the NZ camp jewellers in the camps which explains the various sizes of numerals, whereas the regulation numerals were all 15mm and were manufactured by Gaunt.

Until proof of Stokes made badges being worn by NZ Reinforcements can be produced they should be treated by kiwi collectors as Australian badges and not as New Zealand badges.

Last edited by atillathenunns; 01-03-14 at 04:58 AM.
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  #6  
Old 08-02-14, 06:54 AM
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It is a pity, although not surprising, that the Australian version of this thread was closed down before measured arguments were aired .

To summarise the Australian thread ,one party was accusing the other of selling NZ reinforcement numerals as Australian territorial numbers, as the latter would garner more money on internet auction sites

However the numerals were stamped with a Australian maker and are a different design than the typical NZ numeral. Although I would not rule out the possibility of this .

Last edited by pukman; 18-02-14 at 06:00 PM.
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  #7  
Old 09-02-14, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukman View Post
It is a pity, although not surprising, that the Australian version of this thread was closed down before measured arguments were aired .

To summarise the Australian thread ,one party was accusing the other of selling NZ reinforcement numerals as Australian territorial numbers, as the latter would garner more money on internet auction sites

However the numerals were stamped with a Australian maker and are a different design than the typical NZ numeral. Although I would not rule out the possibility of this ,I would agree with Brent that they should be treated as Australian badges unless strong evidence is produced to the contrary .
FUNNY WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS THE OPPOSITE - COMMON AUSSIE ONES SOLD OFF AS KIWI ONES. HAPPY TO BUY THE OFFENDING FAKE KIWI ONES... EXCUSE THE CAPS LOCK... COULDNT BE BOTHERED RE-TYPING
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  #8  
Old 09-02-14, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saumua View Post
FUNNY WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS THE OPPOSITE - COMMON AUSSIE ONES SOLD OFF AS KIWI ONES. HAPPY TO BUY THE OFFENDING FAKE KIWI ONES... EXCUSE THE CAPS LOCK... COULDNT BE BOTHERED RE-TYPING
No worries ,but I think I stick with what I know are tried and true
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  #9  
Old 09-02-14, 05:46 AM
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All these numerals originally came from Trade Me New Zealand, and re sold on ebay. NOT Australian numerals

http://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-co...-692004587.htm
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  #10  
Old 09-02-14, 06:05 AM
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Hello Viligans ,

I hope to keep everything civil ,in an attempt to get to the crux of this conundrum .

Were Australian made numerals made to supplement NZ made ones is the question ?

The NZ reinforcement numerals I have seen over the years (on uniforms/photos and badge collections ) differ from the ones I have seen lately for sale, with the Stokes marking .

However I keep an open mind and would like to see some constructive information to reinforce your assumptions

Cheers Iain
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  #11  
Old 09-02-14, 09:20 PM
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Hi Iain, and others,
Here is picture of back of 49 numeral showing makers name:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=693653781

Cheers, Tinto
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  #12  
Old 10-02-14, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinto View Post
Hi Iain, and others,
Here is picture of back of 49 numeral showing makers name:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=693653781

Cheers, Tinto
Yes Tinto ,clearly marked "Stokes and sons'' as described

It appears the 2 bars have been sweated on to join the two numerals. The standard New Zealand made reinforcement numerals are solid construction
Cheers Iain
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  #13  
Old 11-02-14, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
Stokes did supply some shoulder titles and badges to NZ Reinforcements, all of which are known such as the Stokes made NZMC badges and the NZMGS shoulder titles.
That is why it is a bit of a surprise that Vigilans has made claims that the Stokes numerals were made for NZ Reinforcements, as everybody knows NZ Reinforcement shoulder numerals were made by the NZ camp jewellers in the camps which explains the various sizes of numerals, whereas the regulation numerals were all 10mm and were manufactured by Gaunt.

Until proof of Stokes made badges being worn by NZ Reinforcements can be produced they should be treated by kiwi collectors as Australian badges and not as New Zealand badges.
Guys, a recent pick-up, a NZFA title with Stokes maker mark.
Regards
James
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  #14  
Old 11-02-14, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Guys, a recent pick-up, a NZFA title with Stokes maker mark.
Regards
James
Thanks James,

From my small collection ,I have only the NZMR and NZMGS shoulder titles .and a NZ signals gilt cap badge ,that are marked Stokes and sons. I have also seen some NZ engineers cap badges that are marked as well.

Cheers Iain
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  #15  
Old 13-02-14, 11:20 AM
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Many thanks Iain,
Here are a couple of others.
A NZE title with "Stokes and Sons" to back
A New Zealand Exp Forces Cap, with "Stokes and Sons" on back of "Z" and "Made in Australia" on back of the "N"

All the best
James..
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File Type: jpg 039.jpg (30.5 KB, 17 views)
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