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  #1  
Old 11-05-16, 08:32 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Default Pattern 350 badge

AFO 654 of February 1944 lists a
Badge, cap, Patt. 350 for T.124 officers not granted commission.
Is the pattern 350 badge a Merchant Navy Officers cap badge?
thanks
Barry
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  #2  
Old 12-05-16, 02:29 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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No idea, what is AFO 654? If it's a naval directive I don't imagine it'll be for a MN badge. It may possibly be for Warrant Officers who don't hold a commission but a warrant, as implied by the rank
Cheers,
Alex
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  #3  
Old 12-05-16, 04:15 PM
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Admiralty Fleet Order 4649 of 19th December 1940 describes and illustrates the Cap Badge – T124 Officers;

To be worn by Mercantile Marine officers employed under T124 agreements and who are not granted temporary commissions.
“distinctive clear anchor in gold on a raised black circular background surrounded by a double ring of gold wire resting on a laurel leaf design, surmounted by a crown.”

According to an internet source "At the beginning of the war the Royal Navy realised that it would not be able to man all the auxiliary vessels it required and so a number of officers and men of the Merchant Navy agreed to serve with the Royal Navy under the T.124 agreement, which made them subject to Naval discipline while generally retaining their Merchant Navy rates of pay and other conditions".

Jon
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File Type: jpg Cap Badge T124 Agreement Officers.jpg (86.3 KB, 15 views)
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  #4  
Old 12-05-16, 06:01 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Now the big question...has anybody ever seen one of these? I have my doubts if this directive ever came into effect as I have never seen or heard of one of these badges. Does anybody know of such a badge?
Thanks, cheers,
Alex
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  #5  
Old 12-05-16, 09:25 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Jon,
Thanks for the image.
The pattern 350 badge seams to be a cross between the pattern 49 PO/class III and the officers pattern 47 badge.
AFO 654 lists the pattern 350 badge at a cost of 7 and 1
The officers pattern 47 metal badge is listed with the same price of 7 and 1
which leads me to think that the P350 was made of the same metal and construction.
Barry
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  #6  
Old 13-05-16, 03:19 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Hi Barry
Sorry, I don't know the different pattern numbers so that doesn't mean much to me, but it does look very similar in style to the pre-1921 RNR and RNVR cap badges, with a more rounded look to the wreath than the wider WWII style badges...if you know what I mean.
I've attached a couple of pics to sort of illustrate my point. It could be they used the RNR/RNVR style badge template as a lot of MN officers were in the reserves?
Very interesting topic, it would be great to find out more info, so thanks for bringing it up.
Cheers,
Alex
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File Type: jpg RNR -pre1921.jpg (97.7 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg RN - WWII.jpg (84.3 KB, 13 views)
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  #7  
Old 16-05-16, 04:08 PM
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Discussing this thread with a friend he wondered if the badge shown could possibly be a version of that discussed as it has a cable-free anchor as described in the 1940 AFO. But it also has an unusual backing colour for the anchor and is QC.

Thoughts please!

Jon
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File Type: jpg MerchantorRoyalNavy Robin unknown.jpg (102.1 KB, 20 views)
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  #8  
Old 16-05-16, 07:10 PM
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Hello,
This last badge is well documented :
it is for the British Antarctic Survey (BAS) ship's officers ;
this organisation was named Falkland Islands Dependencies Survey (FIDS) before 1962.

to note : this pattern shows OAK leaves in place of the LAUREL leaves of the NAVY ...
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  #9  
Old 16-05-16, 07:12 PM
sailorbear sailorbear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postwarden View Post
Discussing this thread with a friend he wondered if the badge shown could possibly be a version of that discussed as it has a cable-free anchor as described in the 1940 AFO. But it also has an unusual backing colour for the anchor and is QC.

Thoughts please!

Jon
Hi there, this cap badge is Merchant Navy and worn by officers of the British Antarctic Survey.

Regards

Tony
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File Type: jpg Detail BAS Cap Badge.jpg (25.6 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg BAS Skipper.jpg (24.9 KB, 16 views)
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  #10  
Old 16-05-16, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Rice View Post
Now the big question...has anybody ever seen one of these? I have my doubts if this directive ever came into effect as I have never seen or heard of one of these badges. Does anybody know of such a badge?
Thanks, cheers,
Alex
Hello,

the only example I have of this kind is this one below :
- apparently a modern copy or a fake - see the bad quality of the embroidery work ...
- and with a FOULED Anchor in place of a CLEAR one ...

On other hand, I've never heard about this class of Mercantile Marine officers employed under T124 agreements and not granted temporary commissions ;

What is a T124 agreement ???


We learn every day .....
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File Type: jpg 7f_1_b.JPG (28.7 KB, 13 views)
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  #11  
Old 16-05-16, 09:07 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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I think that the P350 badge will be a metal economy badge.
Similar in design to the metal economy badge of the RN.
BArry
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  #12  
Old 19-05-16, 08:05 AM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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According to Hansards palimentary report for 18th October 1945 there were approximately 27,000 T124 aggreements signed during the war. The number of actual men is less as some of the men signed up more than once. As of 18/10/45 there were still 2416 officers and 9634 men still working under a T124 aggreement for the RN.

T124 men were eligable for service chervons.

According to AFO 2239 of 20th May 1943 Radio Officers under T124 wore
pattern 350 cap badges and Merchant navy buttons, the cuff rank was similar to the RNVR rank with wavy rings but with a diamond superimposed.
(a cross between MN and RNVR rank). Specific to Radio Officers was the use of pale green to denote trade.

In reference to New Zealand T124 aggreement men, we did use this system under the same guidelines. I have noted that some of the T124 men were Home Service Army men. They were most likely signed up to the RNZN T124 because of their special skills and for a limited time.

With the numbers listed above it is highly likely that there are pattern 350 badges still out there? Maybe miss identified?

Does anyone have a T124 uniform? maybe miss identified?

Barry
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  #13  
Old 19-05-16, 11:25 AM
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Just adding some pics to this thread and hope it may be of relevance.

This is my grandfather c. 1942/3 taken in Cape Town. He is the officer in the background (Lt.(E) John Morrow Whyte, R239166). He had signed T124 and was merchant navy. The officer in the foreground we do not know, but suspect also T124 merchant navy

Note the cap badge appears to be standard RN one but the anchor appears to be surrounded by a circle (ie. no 'foliage' is intruding into the circle as on regular RN officers badge... hope this description makes sense). Both officers wearing RNR lace.

Steven
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File Type: jpg Picture.jpg (45.8 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg John Morrow Whyte.jpg (22.6 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Unknown3.jpg (21.2 KB, 15 views)
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  #14  
Old 19-05-16, 08:45 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Steven,
Thanks for the images.
I agree that the badge in the first photo is possibility a pattern 350 badge.
Barry
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