Black Watch - 42nd Canadian ? - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Roy · #1 15-05-15, 10:04 PM

Hi Gents,

So I wanted to share a new find but also ask a question from those forum members who are experienced CEF collectors.

Firstly - and I hope this isn't too much of a stupid question - but I'm having a little difficulty in seeing the difference between the Canadian 42nd Infantry Battalion badge and the standard Scottish Black Watch badge from the WWI period. Any thoughts?

But more specifically... my recent addition is the MacDougall's marked Black Watch badge you see in the attached image. In reading Charlton's guild (page 83) on the 42nd Inf Btn and the comment in relation to the officers badge is that it has the same makers mark as the example shown here. So is this a badge to the Canadian 42nd OR the Scottish Black Watch?

Cheers, Roy.

Paul Spellman · #2 15-05-15, 10:12 PM

Hi Roy
I always thought that the Black Watch badge with the Sphinx (1802 Egypt Battle Honour) was indication of a British badge rather than Canadian.
Paul

Roy · #3 15-05-15, 10:16 PM

Hi Paul,

Yes that had crossed my mind too. However the example in Charlton's (and on other examples I have seen) does indeed include the Sphinx.

I have also heard that Canadian units used the standard Scottish Black Watch badge as an interim badge but again those examples I have seen as 'definitive' 42nd including the examples shown and referenced in Charlton's look the same as the Scottish version, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something

Cheers, Roy.

Bill A · #4 15-05-15, 10:17 PM

The 42nd and 73rd Bn used the imperial Black Watch badge, but it was made in brass. Roy, I think the badge you have is imperial Black Watch.

GregN · #5 15-05-15, 10:22 PM

Hi Roy, in the case of officer's badges the answer to your question is probably both. As officers had to buy their own uniform and insignia, he probably bought it from a tailor with access to a UK or Canadian supply of insignia.

The ORs badges are more difficult to determine because the exterior is identical to the UK regiment. With these badges the biggest clue is the lugs and a makers mark/plaque. In many cases, if the badge design was similar for both the British and the Canadian regiment and you were sourcing badges in the UK, chances are you would look to a UK manufacturer. In Canada, probably easier to find a Canada-based manufacturer.

Greg

Roy · #6 15-05-15, 10:23 PM

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your comments. Just so I fully understand (feeling a little slow today!).

So would I be correct in saying that there is no difference between the 42/73 badges and those used by the Scottish Black Watch?

Also Bill (sorry for being a little slow) can you confirm your use of the work 'imperial'..? Are you saying that my badge is likely of Canadian/42nd use (as per Charlton's comments) or Scottish?

Roy.

Bill A · #7 15-05-15, 11:47 PM

Hi Roy, To clarify, the word imperial used in the British Empire sense refers to British not Dominion or Colonial forces.
There has been lengthy debate about the brass imperial pattern Black Watch badges. At this point in time the concensus is that the imperial Regiment only wore the white metal badges. The Canadian Black Watch other ranks 42nd / 73rd Bn wore the brass pattern badges.
To conclude, the badge you have appears to be the imperial (British) Black Watch.

Roy · #8 15-05-15, 11:53 PM

Thank you for that Bill,

Very helpful. I had initially concluded it was 'British' and I am of course more than happy with that attribution, it was just the comment in Charlton's that got my a little muddled...!

Thank for all your help gents, as always I'm a little more the wiser on the topic now.

Cheers, Roy.

whizzbang · #9 17-05-15, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy

Hi Gents,

So I wanted to share a new find but also ask a question from those forum members who are experienced CEF collectors.

Firstly - and I hope this isn't too much of a stupid question - but I'm having a little difficulty in seeing the difference between the Canadian 42nd Infantry Battalion badge and the standard Scottish Black Watch badge from the WWI period. Any thoughts?

But more specifically... my recent addition is the MacDougall's marked Black Watch badge you see in the attached image. In reading Charlton's guild (page 83) on the 42nd Inf Btn and the comment in relation to the officers badge is that it has the same makers mark as the example shown here. So is this a badge to the Canadian 42nd OR the Scottish Black Watch?

Cheers, Roy.

Hi Roy,

Not sure if this answers your question but the WW1 (CEF) 42nd BW officers badge does not have the sphinx and the upper banner says "Forty Second".

Cheers, Ian.

Roy · #10 17-05-15, 02:05 AM

Thanks for that Ian,

Very clear - now where can I find one....

Roy.

Adam H · #11 16-06-15, 05:23 PM

Gents,

Not to muddy the waters, but officers of the CEF 42nd and 73rd battalions also wore British/Scottish Black Watch officers' badges. I have had sets of medals that came with various examples myself and numerous photos exists with these type badges in wear. The "special" 42nd CEF badge was certainly worn but I would say the British type was more commonly worn by both the 42nd and 73rd from what I have observed.

Cheers,

Adam

Roy · #12 16-06-15, 06:27 PM

Hi Adam,

Thank you for that. I had heard the same too, especially in the early days of the war. Interestingly a couple of my (Scottish) Black Watch officers badges have come out of longtime Canadian collectors. If only they could talk!

It would be nice to see some of the badges/medals etc in your collection Adam, any chance of some photos?

Cheers, Roy.

whizzbang · #13 16-06-15, 09:53 PM

Hi Adam,

Certainly makes sense, the "special" 42nd badge is far too scarce to have been in common use by a front line CEF battalion - we'd see more of them on the market.

Cheers, Ian.

LLWill · #14 17-06-15, 10:27 AM

Roy! could you share that image with me. I'll use it in the CEF book for the 42nd Officers Imperial pattern. Thanks

Adam H · #15 17-06-15, 01:27 PM

Roy,

Happy to "help". I've seen a few different patterns of Imperial badges come with CEF stuff, from deluxe solid silver to an "el-cheapo" (but very interesting) single piece badge that was silvered and gilded. Sadly, none have remained with me.

I'll happily share the few bits I still have. Badges were never really my focus, mind you. I'm sorting through the collection currently as it's time to dispose of a fair part of it, so will try to get some decent photos of some of the RHC items for you. I have a few bits in old posts on here if you want a peek of some of my modest holdings.

Ian,

Completely agree. I think that the "special" 42nd CEF badges, along with the 13th and some "Imperial" items were likely all offered from the same source (and all made by Macdougall's it would seem) and probably quite a bit more expensive than other contemporary badges that were available, hence their respective scarcity.

Cheers,

Adam