British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Reproductions, Restrikes, Fakes, Forgeries, and Copies

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-08-22, 06:21 AM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default 3rd Middlesex RGA Volunteers

Hello gentlemen,
i look on these pictures since some days and i am not sure if i see an original period badge, (with rotating wheel).
I have doubts looking at the crown, ball and crown on the top are damaged or badly strucked, and the very fresh looking copper lugs.
Can i get any help and expertise before i decide to buy it or not ?

Thanks in advance for your answers,
kind regards
Markus
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 54880b.jpg (91.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg 54880.jpg (108.7 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg 54880a.jpg (112.6 KB, 36 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-08-22, 06:38 AM
norfolk regt man's Avatar
norfolk regt man norfolk regt man is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: norfolk
Posts: 1,972
Default

A very common fake.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-08-22, 06:40 AM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default

Thanks !
Is it the fake with the "high odd ball" above the crown, here removed to make it harder to recognize ? That is what i thought ........

Kind regards
Markus
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-08-22, 07:15 AM
norfolk regt man's Avatar
norfolk regt man norfolk regt man is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: norfolk
Posts: 1,972
Default

Hi Markus, the main reason I believe it’s a fake is because it is a very rare badge, and I don’t think even anyone on this forum has a genuine one, ( prove me wrong please with a photo), but go to most uk military fairs, and you can buy at least 2 for £12.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-08-22, 08:43 AM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default

I have not seen an original one, there are one or two in the albums but i guess they are also fakes. I saw them on ebay.co.uk in mass for small money, but this one is offered by a dealer for 150 GBP. And there is not the "spike" ,which the fakes i know, on the crown so i thought it could have a chance ....
The point is - hard to collect experience and knowledge from here, Germany, and not so easy to visit a militaria fair in UK on saturday morning .....
That is the reason why i post so many "stupid" questions here .... please apologize for that.

Kind regards and a nice weekend
Markus
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-08-22, 09:52 AM
Sonofacqms's Avatar
Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 6,237
Default 3rd Middlesex RGA Volunteers

I have a 3rd Middlesex RGA Volunteers which I had to repair as the loops were missing, as to whether it's an original I am sure people would offer different opinions.

Rob
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-08-22, 10:22 AM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default

Hello Rob,
have you posted it in an album or would you show it here ?
I would like to see an original badge .....
If it is so rare, i guess there were not many manufacurers/different dies ......

Regards
Markus
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-08-22, 10:59 AM
thursdaychris thursdaychris is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 276
Default

Hallo Markus, wie geht's? This is not the first time that you have enquired about this badge, so, I guess that you must really like it, this is also not the first time that you have been told that it is a fake!

I do not know whether it is or not, however, I do know, that back in January, this year, I had one remaining gap in the Volunteer Artillery section of my RA gunbadge collection, and I arranged a trade deal for this badge, with the dealer who has it.

Numerous emails were exchanged, but in the end, sadly, the trade deal did fall through, due mostly to an unfortunate delay in the proceedings. I did keep up my side of the deal, however, and although I didn't actually end up with the badge, I am still in credit.

The dealer himself does not think that there is any problem with this badge, and as far as I'm aware, he is considered to be a perfectly genuine sort of a guy. We did discuss the badge at some length, and exchanged quite a few emails, Norman Litchfield even came up at one stage, so, there you have it, that's my two pence, worth.

Last edited by thursdaychris; 08-08-22 at 12:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-08-22, 05:52 PM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default

Hi Chris, thanks, fine !
But - so sorry for asking abouth this badge a second time !
You are right, i posted it here already and it was classified as a copy.
I forgot it, may be my age ..... and discovered it again last weekend.
I can only beg for pardon.
And yes, i like these gun badges in deed, and i see now how rare they are. So i must have a lot of patience and luck to get one of the volunteer-, militia- or territorial gun badges with unit designation.
Thanks for all comments and kind regards
Markus
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-08-22, 07:11 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 4,852
Default

You may find this this thread of some relevance and use:
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=76213

Clearly Norman Litchfield had badges from this die in his collection and I believe it may even have been pictured in his book.

I have a developed what is likely to controversial theory about these WM Third Middlesex R.G.A. Volunteers badges… they’re all old fakes.

I’m reliably informed by Simon (Manchesters) that the Warwickshire R.H.A. was an officers only TF Arty cap badge. Now I’m of the growing opinion that the Third Middx R.G.A. and West Riding R.H.A. can be added to this list.

The officers Third Middx badge I’ve seen in bronze is not from the same die as these WM badges.

One day when time permits I’ll get around to posting my observations on these Third Middx and the West Ridings that Litchfield pictured, their similarities also with a spurious RA Volunteers badge.

But in a nutshell the WM and GM versions respectively of both badges are all shades of grey in terms of how poor the reverse impression and voiding is.

When this duo is compared to the genuine First Hants, Fifth London and W. Riding they just do not stand up in terms of quality.

Probably should put my tin hat on for suggesting Litchfield may have got these wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-08-22, 05:58 AM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default

Thank you Luke for the links, they are realy helpfull and may be the best source now available about these badges. I have subscribed to the thread ...
If i compare the badge i requested, which is for sale now, i would conclude that it was made with the same die as yours and Simons badge, see pictures added. Different are the spare wheel and the lugs, and even if two badges come from the same die, edges and voids can look very different due to manual post-processing. So here the upper edge of the crown .....
It would be great if you find the time to post your actual observations and conclusions about these badges.
Thanks for your efforts to explain me the problematic to judge about these badges,
kind regards
Markus
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Vergleich 1.jpg (29.1 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Vergleich 2.jpg (57.4 KB, 26 views)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-08-22, 03:14 PM
denis pannett's Avatar
denis pannett denis pannett is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beaconsfield
Posts: 122
Default

I have a silver one which I have always believed to be genuine but open to other members views? Denis
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2830.jpg (112.5 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2831.jpg (95.2 KB, 38 views)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-08-22, 04:45 PM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default

I think it is made with the same die like that Luke H postet in #10 in the above linked thread.
After all i have seen and read now - a good sign.
Regards
Markus
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-08-22, 05:18 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 4,852
Default

Happy to help Markus. I would agree, the badge in post #1, mine and Simon’s WM examples are all from the same die.

The badge Denis shows is however from another different die. There are many subtle differences across the whole badge.

Note the differences to the lettering, jewels and dots v’s wavy line above them in the crown / scroll comparison.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg F347CC2D-D55F-4E65-A26A-65BF9CA738CD.jpg (49.2 KB, 27 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-08-22, 05:40 PM
Markus Bodeux's Avatar
Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Germany
Posts: 104
Default

Hello Luke,
thanks again for all the help and explanations.
I saw that the badge shown by Denis is different to yours and Simons.
I wanted to say that it is very close, possibly from the same die, like shown by you in #10 of the old thread.
I have also tried to compare it to the badge shown in King?Kipling, the picture is taken from an other angle and may be it has a "spare wheel", but it is also close to the badge from Denis and that in #10.

Kind regards
Markus
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Unbenannt-1.jpg (70.1 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN8922.jpg (108.9 KB, 12 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:54 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.