British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > It's a Mystery -Unknown Insignia for Identification

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30-07-20, 12:05 PM
The history detective The history detective is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Default Military interlocking belt buckles

Good afternoon
I am an antique dealer in military items, I search all over the UK for military artifacts. Recently 3 styles of interlocking belt buckles came into my possession. I have tried the internet but no luck so far so they are

1. Brass belt buckle Royal Arms motto: DIEU ET MON DROIT around the outer, the centre has Lion astride crown, Style of crown isn't Kings or Queens.

2. Brass belt buckle circle design around the outer, the centre has a Lion astride a kings crown.

3. Brass belt buckle motto Nil desparandum Victoria Centre is a crown. I saw a thread here that indicates that it may be an Australian buckle. Can this be confirmed.

Hoping in advance Mike
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6123.jpg (101.1 KB, 131 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6124.jpg (88.2 KB, 120 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6125.jpg (87.9 KB, 123 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 30-07-20, 02:15 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,406
Default

Mike

Are these very worn or badly cast? The detail seems blurry, behind the verdigris, and I'm wondering whether they may be Indo-Pakistani 'bazaar cast' copies.

If so, the middle one is likely, IMO, to be a fantasy piece. No idea about the other two, as both mottos are very popular with a number of British and Imperial/Commonwealth units.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 30-07-20, 05:19 PM
The history detective The history detective is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Default

Thank you for your reply Peter, do you have links or online resources that I could cross reference.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 31-07-20, 06:37 AM
Mike H's Avatar
Mike H Mike H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,694
Default

The first one doesnt look right. I think it could well be 2 separate halves.
The emblem reminds me of a railway insignia
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 31-07-20, 02:02 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,406
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The history detective View Post
Thank you for your reply Peter, do you have links or online resources that I could cross reference.
Here are a couple of examples of 'sand cast' badges - both to British regiments - which came out of India. As you can see, the quality of the castings is quite poor. These are still made to sell to tourists, and have been, I suspect, since at least WWII, when troops in India bought them as souvenirs.

The term usually applied is 'sand cast'.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ht=indian+made

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...6&d=1586774811


At the bottom is a site for an Indian firm which makes good badges, but the quality, as in everything else available in the free market, ranges from excellent to awful.

https://dir.indiamart.com/impcat/mil...lt-buckle.html

If you check in the 'Indian' section you will find discussions of such badges and in 'Fakes & Forgeries', as some are meant to defraud but many are simply poorly and quickly made and sold cheaply.

I hope this is some help. Sorry I don't have more info.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 31-07-20, 02:31 PM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,687
Default

The first two don't look like brass to me, more like coated steel, hence the rust. The first one has a coronet in the design, not a crown, the lion surmounts the coronet and is not astride it. The second one has a crown surmounted by a lion, not a lion astride a crown and the whole thing looks like a piece of old costume tat to my eyes. The third one looks to be Australian Militia and appears to have spent a long time in unfavourable storage conditions. In militaria circles these things are usually referred to as waistbelt clasps.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-08-20, 06:34 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
Member 2010-21- Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 1,459
Smile

G'day Mike

Re buckle No 3, this is not like anything Ive ever seen here in Aussie.

In the colonial period in the state / colony of Victoria the various Militia regiments wore waist belt clasps of the same shape, however they are quite dis similar to the one that you show.

Whilst they have the Queen Vic Crown to the centre, the surround has one of 2 different mottoes, either Aut Pace Aut Bello Victoria or Pro Deo et Patria Victoria, this second one was introduced in 1893. The "snake" type clasp was also used, with and without the word Victoria and some regiments used a waist belt plate.

I have a white blankoed leather waist belt with the brass waist belt clasp and the Motto of Aut Pace Aut Bello Victoria. I also have an officers plain brown leather waist belt with sword slings and a white metal "Snake" clasp. I have had both of these belts from the early 1970's.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-08-20, 09:27 AM
Ironside410 Ironside410 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cairns FNQ
Posts: 202
Default

Mike

I brought a variant of the third buckle from a Victorian militaria dealer about 10 years ago. At the time he advised that it was probable that the buckle was from the Hastings 40 Pounder Battery , (Victorian Rangers) that was formed in 1890 for the protection of Westernport.

The Battery’s guns were drawn by bullocks and its nickname was the “Bullock’s Battery”.

I have never been able to confirm the information as very few records or photographs of the unit exist.

Regards

Dennis

Last edited by Ironside410; 01-08-20 at 09:30 AM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-08-20, 12:52 PM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
Member 2010-21- Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Melbourne Australia.
Posts: 1,459
Smile

Hi Dennis

There is a book on the Western Port battery, I think that its put out by the historical society at Hastings, I will see if I can chase down a copy and will let you know.

Take care

Phil.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-08-20, 12:29 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,020
Default

The "Bullock Battery" was the description I heard, but have never been able to confirm it.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-08-20, 02:53 PM
The history detective The history detective is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Default 3rd Belt buckle

Thank you for your replies Phil and Dennis I have seen several examples of the Victoria belt buckle. If there is any more information I would be grateful. Peter thank you for the links which I found very interesting indeed and they could very well be fantasy pieces.

Kind Regards
Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
brass belt buckle, military buckle

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:00 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.