Royal Observer Corps

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

My 1912 (reprinted 1915) cavalry training manual says you should salute with the hand furthest from the person saluted, I don't know when this practice stopped but its possible that this gentleman is an old soldier?

Sorry Mike your thread is getting hijacked

That sounds like the most plausible explanation Rob and would explain why both men are saluting left handed.

Ry

[jonnynation]

Hi,

My particular interest for collecting is CD and ROC insignia, so im really happy to see this thread!

The ROC group is indeed being followed by a CD group. It appears to be later war era, as all the chaps are in uniform. Much like the Home Guard, it took a while to kit out the ROC and CD properly. Also theres a Yank flag in the picture, so must be after they bothered to show face!

The image has not been reversed, although this would have been a very good reason, as other people have pointed out all the little details show that the image is seen in the correct manner.

Ive never read anything about the CD and ROC saluting with the left arm, and i`ll go and try to find out if this is the case... i cant imagine that it is, just looks very unnatural! Perhaps the 1912 cavalry training manual theory works well.

The best potential explaination that i can come up with for the salute is that both groups were made up of volunteers during and after the war, and i would suspect that with little time for training during such a busy time, drill / marching (and saluting at the same time!) probably didnt get a lot of focus on the training schedule. How both came to be ballsing it up in a similar fashion i dont know, but in the ROC chaps defence he does appear to be waving at his mam more than saluting!

To answer the original question about the title, that pattern was used up until the dark blue version appears in 1977 and battle dress uniforms are taken out of use and replaced with the zip up blazerish style uniform. Im pretty sure that the ROC did have shoulder titles during the war, but will have to check on that also.

Regards the badge insignia, the chap in it is an Elizabethan lamp lighter, who is scanning the horizon off the coast for approaching enemy ships.

regards, sean

[Staffsyeoman]

The Elizabethan beacon lighter - inspired by the chain which warned of the approach of the Spanish Armada - was known to generations of ROC members (of whom my partner was one in the 80s and early 90s before being commissioned in the RAFVR - no, not the ATC) as 'Fiery Fred'

Meanwhile, back at the ROC shoulder title; she thinks it replaced the 'plate' as it was known, when the Queen's Crown came in c. 1953. These were worn on ROC dress right up to disbandment, finally on the 'spock jacket' as they called it. A numeral indicating the ROC Group your post was part of was worn below.

[Phil2M]

I was bored so played around with your image, I hope you don't mind.

Regards

Phil

[SAS1]

To answer the original question, that type of title was introduced about 1949, replacing the oval breast badge that had been worn by the Royal Observer Corps since April 1941 (previously they had worn a similar circular one as the Observer Corps). The title remained the same until 1972 when the backing, in line with most RAF was changed to dark blue. The only variation was to incorporate the Group number in the title, others having the numeral seperate on a small square of the same design to be attached underneath.

The only shoulder title worn during the war by the ROC was 'Seaborne', a title given to about 900 Observers who sailed with the D-Day Fleet. They were printed (although privately made woven variations exist) and were permitted to be worn from then on as a badge of honour for the rest of the mans service.

With regards the photos, the first I'd suggest is late war, probably a VE parade or similar. As for the left handed salute, it is apparently permitted if the soldier/airman in question has injured the right arm, for them instead to use the left. As many ROC were ex forces (and the chap in question has medal ribbons to back that up) I'd think he'd know the correct way, so perhaps that is the answer for both?

The second photo I'd date at around the mid-1950s. The chap crouching second right has the shoulder title with numeral, then Spitfire badge (denoting proficiency in aircraft recognition) then rank badge. The Spitfire badge appears to be on dark blue indicating wartime issue, rather than the woven on blue/grey which was correct for this period.