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#16
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1. 1st and 2nd Life Guards (existed just two years, from 1920 when public duties recommenced until 1922 when the two regiments merged). 2. The Life Guards (from 1922) until HCR badge adopted during the latter part of George V reign (the number of actual mounted troops became reduced progressively over decades with each new round of defence cuts). 3. The Royal Horse Guards from 1920 until the HCR badge was adopted. 4. The Blues and Royals (RHG and 1st Dragoons) only ever wore the HCR badge already then in use. Only three cyphers for this badge are possible, GVR, GVIR and EIIR. NB. See enclosed the three HCR badges, one with GVR cypher, one with GVIR cypher, and one with EIIR cypher, one RHG and two LG. The LG has ribbed lace on the peak and the RHG has smooth lace on the peak (the latter has continued in use for the Blues and Royals. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 09-04-20 at 01:18 PM. |
#17
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Okay, so again, to be absolutely clear, you appear to be suggesting that officers of the 1st and 2nd Life Guards as well as the Royal Horse Guards all wore gilt and enamel cap badges with the particular title of their regiment upon them on their forage caps?
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#18
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The changes of insignia were determined by changes in headdress and fashion (as in what the Army as a whole were doing). You can get a good feel for how things evolved for the Household Cavalry regiments over the span of Queen Victoria’s reign, the strong influence of which is still seen today: http://www.uniformology.com/HHC-00.html |
#19
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Okay, please could you tell us exactly where that particular information came from?
[QUOTE=Toby Purcell;505713]Yes! For a very short period (for the reasons I’ve explained) until the generic HCR badge was adopted. |
#20
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[QUOTE=Frank Kelley;505716]Okay, please could you tell us exactly where that particular information came from?
No Frank, I think I’ve typed enough information now. You believe what you choose to believe. |
#21
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[QUOTE=Frank Kelley;505716]Okay, please could you tell us exactly where that particular information came from?
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#22
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Some numbers for those interested.
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#23
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Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#24
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Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#25
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Yes I'm familiar with those badges in the 1900 DRs, they are badges for the field caps that I mentioned, but did not describe in post #14. See enclosed images courtesy of Bruce Bassett-Powell, and available in detail here: http://www.uniformology.com/HHC-00.html These badges are even rarer than the enameled badges that we are talking about in this thread. It was just on forage caps (pillbox and peaked) that they did not wear badges. It's interesting that the Foot Guards adopted the style of Horse Guards rank stars (pips) and the Horse Guards adopted the style of Foot Guards forage cap badges. In both cases this was in the period immediately after WW1. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 09-04-20 at 12:51 PM. |
#26
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Thank you, it's very useful to see the numbers of officers post-war. The number of regimental enameled badges ever made was tiny and they are extraordinarily rare. Few surviving examples appear on sale, and the majority exist only in the possession of wealthy collectors right across the world. They are very sought after because of that tantalising quality that always attracts wealthy collectors, beauty and rarity. KK did not refer to badges that never existed.
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#27
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Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#28
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I think a robust discussion is good, healthy and often productive.
Absolutely, the historical background and records are of great importance and interest to me and I’m sure many others Toby. I for one certainly appreciate your contributions so please be assured my response is meant in a constructive way only to help establish what actually happened in practice and is not a criticism of historians or the records. Quote:
Accompanied with the demo pics it suggested to me they were examples of these badges when they weren’t. That was the basis of my response in post #10 born from a concern the two together could lead to an assumption by a reader that the badges pictured were what to look for. Obviously I see you’ve clarified this in post #11 in that your intention was to leave it for collectors to decide and they were for demo purposes only. Quote:
I take your point that numbers of these G&E badges would be relatively low but these regiments and their well-to-do officers are certainly very well photographed and painted due to their ceremonial roles and the prestige element. This I feel would counterbalance numbers somewhat. My honest belief is that 1LG and 2LG did not wear G&E badges as a matter of course. But as I said I’d love to be proved wrong. If I ever am proved wrong (by a period photo or a genuine badge emerging) I feel confident in saying such a badge will be the ‘exception to’ rather than ‘the rule’ itself as to what was worn in practice, even though the ‘exception’ may be commensurate with orders and documentation. An example that springs to mind is the documentation unearthed by Julian (KLR) which suggests for a brief period that infantry regiments with badges ordered in all GM also had this extended to their TF Battalions. Clearly for some this did happen in practice like the Essex Reg and Northants, but, I am certain not for others such as the scroll-less Leicestershire Reg and blank scroll East Lancs. I think I’m correct in saying there may even be numbers ordered attached to these. Ultimately there are certain facets to this hobby where the individual collector has to decide what they believe. In a way is perhaps it’s one of our hobby’s charms? But in order to reach the best informed decision it’s important to know as much information, physical, photographic/painting, documents, orders, regulations and their source as possible to balance all sides of a debate and see which one we feel most comfortable coming down on. |
#29
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Sorry, I don't understand, you have clearly stated that officers of three regiments wore gilt and enamel cap badges that were unique to each particular regiment, I simply wondered where exactly you got that information from and the actual evidence you have to support your statement?
[QUOTE=Toby Purcell;505721] |
#30
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Here is a photograph of a genuine RHG cap star as in the 1900 and 1904 Officers Dress Regs.
There may be many more of these around (and 1LG versions) as I bought this as a "fire damaged" Coldstream Guards WO star. For "fire damaged" read black tarnish. Bill |
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