Yeomanry 'Y' titles

[badjez]

Various 'authorities' have described the use of TF Yeomanry titles differently so I thought I would air the subject and see if any new light could be shed upon the subject.

The time line for their use is something like this:
By draft TF Regs 1908 new titles are introduced, being T/Y/ county name. As they were produced by County Territorial Associations they were not sealed by the WO.

1916/1917. Upon the introduction of 'economy' badges the WO take over supply of titles to TF units. As Yeomanry units were no longer predominantly Territorials the new titles are simply Y/ county name.
Around the same time titles are produced in cloth.
01.05.16. Army Clothing Dept note instruction to issue a loose metal ‘T’ with embroidered cloth titles for TF units. The ‘T’ will not be issued to Yeomanry.

1919. Cloth titles declared obsolete.

17.07.20. WOL ACD/40677 (TV1): In the interests of economy and with a view to simplifying issues in the event of mobilisation, and the stocks to be held for that purpose, it was proposed that in future the shoulder titles, cap and collar badges to be used by units of the TA should be those authorised for the corresponding units and branches of the service in the Regular Army with the addition in the case of shoulder titles of the letter ‘T’.

08.06.22. Both T/Y and Y titles declared obsolete. However many continue in use (as late as 1957 by Lancashire Hussars- SEE amendment below)

14.05.40. ACI 466: The issue of metal titles and badges of rank discontinued. The letter ‘T’ referred to in TF Regs 1936, paras 527 and 548, will cease to be worn by officers and other ranks for whom it has hitherto been prescribed; battalion numbers will also be omitted from the shoulder title worn by other ranks of TA infantry battalions.

To add to the confusion individual letter 'Y' can be found, so when were they worn?

Stephen.

AMENDMENT- I think I erred when I listed the Lancs Hussars title above, having mistook the cloth badge for the metal badge. The cloth badge for 306 Regt RA (Lancs Hussars) was approved by the Army Dress Committee on 10.03.53.

[Peter Brydon]

Stephen,

Your reference to Lancashire Hussars and metal titles " as late as 1957" is most interesting, unless I have misunderstood.

Inside the programme for the Freedom of the Borough of Crosby which I acquired last year is a letter tipped in which is in response to a request for an example of the arm badge worn on the left sleeve of their battledress blouses by the successor unit to the Lancashire Hussars.

According to the letter the arm badge was introduced in 1953 and by this time I believe cloth Royal Artillery shoulder titles were being worn by the unit .

I think the DLOY wore metal titles well after the Hussars became Artillery.

Peter

[Mercian]

I know the Cheshire Yeomanry wore Y Cheshire until 1967.

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Mercian

I know the Cheshire Yeomanry wore Y Cheshire until 1967.

Was it this one?

Marc

[Mercian]

Yes that's the one.

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Mercian

Yes that's the one.

Thank you I can put a date to it now.

Marc

[badjez]

1) Regarding the Cheshire Yeomanry I have noted that on 12.04.67. at the 178th Meeting of the ADC, the Committee approved the wearing of metal shoulder titles and collar badges by Yeomanry regiments.
The proposed title for A, B & C Sqn, Cheshire Yeo was 'GM Cheshire
CB 1401 No ‘T’.'
Their cap badge was 'Cheshire Yeo CB 3279', and collar badges were those of the 'R. Wilts Yeo AA CB 3492'.

2) I think I erred when I listed the Lancs Hussars title, having mistook the cloth badge for the metal badge. The cloth badge for 306 Regt RA (Lancs Hussars) was approved by the Army Dress Committee on 10.03.53.

3) The Duke of Lancaster’s Own Yeo (RTR)(T) A Sqn, B Sqn, C Sqn wore a GM title 'DLOY' CB 1520. Their application to wear an embroidered 'Badge, Arm, Tank CB 0159 ' was turned down.

4) Whilst interesting sidelines none of the above have got me any closer to solving my initial riddle.

Stephen.

[fearnaught]

Hi Stephen, the yeomanry converted to armoured car regiments wore Y over RTC from 1923. They were converted in 1920 but I don't know if they wore Y over TC during this period. They can come loose or soldered to the RTC. Hope this helps Mike

[badjez]

Mike,

Thanks. Yes I'd identified them. Most T/Y titles disappeared when the units converted to artillery, and/or when the RGA and RFA merged as RA units.

I would be interested to see photos of the separate 'Y' being worn if anyone has any.

Stephen.

[Postwarden]

To add to this interesting thread I have dug out the December 1922 pamphlet Titles and Designations of Units of the Territorial Army. This has a column headed Title for wear on shoulder strap which lists the wording to be worn by TA units.

The yeomanry regiments converted to Artillery are listed as wearing Y/RFA, the RTC Armoured Car Companies Y/Tank Corps. Yeomanry converted to Royal Signals wear Y/Royal Corps of Signals. The 241st and 242nd (H) (Denigh) Medium Batteries RGA are listed as wearing Y/RGA, No 1 City of London (Yeomanry) Battery, RHA as wearing Y/RYA.

Jon

[Postwarden]

Gunner of the Suffolk Hussars as Royal Artillery wearing a separate Y with RA title.

Jon

[Alan O]

What a great photo. Inter war years and is the first evidence I have seen of the full sized Yeomanry badge worn with RA collars. Thank you for showing it. Can I copy the post to the LSH thread?

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Postwarden

To add to this interesting thread I have dug out the December 1922 pamphlet Titles and Designations of Units of the Territorial Army. This has a column headed Title for wear on shoulder strap which lists the wording to be worn by TA units.

The yeomanry regiments converted to Artillery are listed as wearing Y/RFA, the RTC Armoured Car Companies Y/Tank Corps. Yeomanry converted to Royal Signals wear Y/Royal Corps of Signals. The 241st and 242nd (H) (Denigh) Medium Batteries RGA are listed as wearing Y/RGA, No 1 City of London (Yeomanry) Battery, RHA as wearing Y/RHA.

Jon

Two of those mentioned, I think.

Marc

[fairlie63]

PVCN 1926 footnotes p71 that: "Units not included in the list of special titles for the Territorial Army wear the titles authorised for their regular regiments or corps with the addition of a metal 'T' or 'Y' and numeral as necessary, supplied loose, to be demanded separately."

[Postwarden]

Some examples of the rare cloth titles introduced in 1916.

Jon