Civil Service Rifles - scroll positions

It's just my theory, and I would therefore appreciate other members' opinions, but I reckon that the upturned scrolls commonly seen on the badges of 15th County of London Battalion, may have been a little fad adopted by the men of the unit.

I have seen period photogrpahs of this badge in situ with and without upturned scrolls, and therefore think it might have been something the blokes did to the badge themselves - a bit like removing the wire from their caps.

CSR.jpg

Any thoughts appreciated.

Peter.

[Sonofacqms]

Peter, I think you are probably right in thinking this, I had a North Staffs with the ends of the scrolls firmly folded back which was to make the badge fit neatly onto a backing.

I also have a pair of what appear to be two tower collars to the Cambs which started life as three tower badges, the centre tower was folded back to comply with the new collars being two tower.

Hello Rob,

Thanks for replying.

I am as guilty as anybody of splitting hairs over badge variations on occasions, and if I am honest, quite enjoy doing so. I can rightly be accused of often looking for a complicated answer when the simplest is the most likely .

In this case though, I really think it is just a case of a trend being followed... it is one explanation for why you see both types being worn in a single photograph.

I'll try and get another picture posted later, but when the first badge in the image above is viewed from the side, it is clear to see that it has been bent about quite a bit. This to me suggests further evidence of how these badges were 'personalised' by the chaps that wore them.

That said, I will always be open to other opinions, of course.

Cheers Rob.

PJ

[steveh]

Originally Posted by Peter J

Hello Rob,

Thanks for replying.

I am as guilty as anybody of splitting hairs over badge variations on occasions, and if I am honest, quite enjoy doing so. I can rightly be accused of often looking for a complicated answer when the simplest is the most likely .

In this case though, I really think it is just a case of a trend being followed... it is one explanation for why you see both types being worn in a single photograph.

I'll try and get another picture posted later, but when the first badge in the image above is viewed from the side, it is clear to see that it has been bent about quite a bit. This to me suggests further evidence of how these badges were 'personalised' by the chaps that wore them.

That said, I will always be open to other opinions, of course.

Cheers Rob.

PJ

Badges were often bent to fit better into the various types of headwear they were for. Each Soldier would have have a number of hats, caps etc and each one would have a different look or shape to it.

All types of uniform were taylored to look and fit better and to lessen the bullshit aspect of army life.

The only drawback with this came if you were charged or put on show parade etc.. Altered badges, uniforms or anyything else could drop you right in the s**t if it was noticed... or they powers that be wanted to catch you out.

Why spend hours polishing your boots to a high gloss when a coat of gloss paint or floor polish could help speed things along... God help you if you got caught though.... Many on here might read that last bit and be outraged... Many will also understand..

Originally Posted by steveh

Badges were often bent to fit better into the various types of headwear they were for. Each Soldier would have have a number of hats, caps etc and each one would have a different look or shape to it.

All types of uniform were taylored to look and fit better and to lessen the bullshit aspect of army life.

The only drawback with this came if you were charged or put on show parade etc.. Altered badges, uniforms or anyything else could drop you right in the s**t if it was noticed... or they powers that be wanted to catch you out.

Why spend hours polishing your boots to a high gloss when a coat of gloss paint or floor polish could help speed things along... God help you if you got caught though.... Many on here might read that last bit and be outraged... Many will also understand..

How right you are, Steve. I know of a certain former Royal Engineer, who used to spend all of thirty seconds on his daisies, applying Araldite and silicone spray ...

...you know who you are!!!

[steveh]

Originally Posted by Peter J

How right you are, Steve. I know of a certain former Royal Engineer, who used to spend all of thirty seconds on his daisies, applying Araldite and silicone spray ...

...you know who you are!!!

I remember hearing a story that went around about 1RGJ when they did duties at Buckingham Palace after coming back from 2 years in Hong Kong.

The story was that when the Riflemen were on parade a RSM from one of the Guards regiments went totally mental after noticing that some of the Green Jackets had painted their toecaps / boots with black gloss paint.
When the Guards RSM pointed this out to the Green Jacket RSM that his men had used paint to get their boots nice and shiney. The Green Jacket replied "Yes... It looks good doesn't it"

Could be part urban myth within the Green Jackets.. But there’s no smoke without fire.

[Keith Blakeman]

The field service cap badges of the Civil Service Rifles worn during the volunteer period also have very tight scrolls, very similar to that worn in the IY rosette. The collars of the 16th London are also very unique so I too think it's a case of badges being modified to give them an identity as in their 'proper' shape they're identical to the Denbighshire Hussars other than the BB/Bronze finish.

However, I have a photo of the CSR as Vols wearing the nickel badge and there's no bending up of scrolls apparent.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Peter J

It's just my theory, and I would therefore appreciate other members' opinions, but I reckon that the upturned scrolls commonly seen on the badges of 15th County of London Battalion, may have been a little fad adopted by the men of the unit.

I have seen period photogrpahs of this badge in situ with and without upturned scrolls, and therefore think it might have been something the blokes did to the badge themselves - a bit like removing the wire from their caps.

Attachment 40863

Any thoughts appreciated.

Peter.

Peter,
could you possibly share images of the backs of these three? From the front only the middle one flicks my switch!

Andy

Originally Posted by 2747andy

the middle one flicks my switch!

'Flicks your switch'... is that good or bad?

I'll try to post them within the hour if I can; failing that, it will have to be this evening.

Peter.

Here you go, Andy:

CSR Reverse.jpg

Peter

[Leonard D]

Hi Peter, another interesting thread indeed. Your thoughts on the scrolls being "modified" to suit the wearer are I believe valid and could apply to other badges as well. The Welsh/Welch come to mind as these are also seen with the scrolls in various positions? Will be interested to read further comments on this one.
Will check my WM CSR this evening.
Cheers.
L.R

Hello Len,

Hope you're keeping well, mate.

Yes, an interesting topic; not everyone's cup of tea, but you know what I'm like for my London badge idiosyncracies!

PJ

[orasot]

Funny that !! It's the outer 2 I like best Peter I can't really see bend marks on yours from the pics mate, this is the only 2 I have left, I let Magpie have the set I got with medals but that was the same, all made this way & not bent afterwards, no creasing or stress marks as there would have to be. Maybe some just bent theirs up to look like their mates if they were issued with a variant !! Only my opinion of course, as always !!!!
Wilf.

Wilf,

Thanks for posting those pictures.

Bend/stress marks are something I failed to consider. Obvious really, but it just didn't occur to me, so thanks for raising that point.

You also have an example of each type of letting on the scrolls - the left-hand being sans serif, and the right not. Another hair to split!

PJ

[orasot]

I haven't got many hairs left to split Pete, but I suppose it'd look more if I did Anyway, well spotted mate, all the best,
Wilf.