British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Airborne, Elite and Special Forces Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 03-08-20, 12:42 AM
lifeochil's Avatar
lifeochil lifeochil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 238
Default

How easy would it be to stamp the 'makers name' on the slider?
Would it have been done by individuals or done when they were produced if the badge is a fake, or is it possible that someone was contracted to stamp 'x' amount of various badges with 'x' amount of various 'Makers.'
Hope that makes sense.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-08-20, 11:27 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

This may go some way to answering your question https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...arples+Beasley

I’ve no doubt the stamp used to mark sliders is in the hands of the repro merchants.

To date no genuine metal Other Ranks badge bearing a Marples & Beasley marked slider is known to exist. They made/marked officers badges and Anodised Aluminium badges. I think that answers the question of authenticity around these items.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-08-20, 12:54 PM
pontecagnano's Avatar
pontecagnano pontecagnano is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 181
Default

Both original and copy badges have been stamped with this mark. Unfortunately a lot of original badges have been rendered worthless by this.
Just to muddy the waters, a number of original unmarked anodised badges have also been stamped in this way. Fortunately, the fake stamp is different to the genuine one used on original M&B anodised badges. The top line of both stamps is 16.5mm long but there are a number of differences:

Genuine Stamp:
  • The letters are mores spaced out (positive kerning);
  • the ampersand is central between 'MARPLES' and 'BEASLEY';
  • the three horizontal bars on the second 'E' in 'BEASLEY' are the same length;
  • the 'B' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is under the 'RP' of 'MARPLES'; and
  • the 'M' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is under the 'A' of 'BEASLEY'.

Fake Stamp:
  • The letters are very close together (negative kerning);
  • the ampersand is noticeably closer to 'MARPLES' than 'BEASLEY';
  • the three horizontal bars on the second 'E' in 'BEASLEY' increase in length, top to bottom, appearing to follow the left hand edge of the 'Y' in 'BEASLEY';
  • the 'B' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is directly under the 'P' of 'MARPLES'; and
  • the 'M' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is directly under the 'S' of 'BEASLEY'.

If you have any anodised badges, with Marples & Beasley marked sliders, it's worth checking that you have the correct stamp as there are quite a few badges with the fake one in circulation.

Graham
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Anodised with Fake M&B Stamp.jpg (32.9 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg M&B 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards Anodised (Genuine).jpg (71.2 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg M&B SASC Anodised (Genuine).jpg (75.7 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg P4210025b.jpg (45.1 KB, 18 views)
__________________
Chute & Dagger UK is the international elite unit insignia collectors' society, If you are interested in becoming a member, please e-mail us at chuteanddaggeruk@yahoo.co.uk for more details
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-08-20, 05:16 PM
grey_green_acorn's Avatar
grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 5,821
Default

Is this a fake mark? Flat back Yorkshire Brigade / Volunteers

Tim
Attached Images
File Type: jpg EFF8E986-9B0E-4A6D-80EC-457611A30B28.jpg (62.3 KB, 26 views)
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm"
"Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!"
"Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-08-20, 07:42 PM
pontecagnano's Avatar
pontecagnano pontecagnano is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 181
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn View Post
Is this a fake mark? Flat back Yorkshire Brigade / Volunteers

Tim
Hello Tim,

Apologies, the photos I attached have names identifying the genuine and fake marks which become more obvious if one saves them.

I'm afraid that is a fake stamp. it's identical to all the ones on brass sliders seen so far.

Graham
__________________
Chute & Dagger UK is the international elite unit insignia collectors' society, If you are interested in becoming a member, please e-mail us at chuteanddaggeruk@yahoo.co.uk for more details
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-08-20, 11:50 PM
lifeochil's Avatar
lifeochil lifeochil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
This may go some way to answering your question https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...arples+Beasley

I’ve no doubt the stamp used to mark sliders is in the hands of the repro merchants.

To date no genuine metal Other Ranks badge bearing a Marples & Beasley marked slider is known to exist. They made/marked officers badges and Anodised Aluminium badges. I think that answers the question of authenticity around these items.
Yes very interesting. So are they fake or genuine?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-08-20, 11:51 PM
lifeochil's Avatar
lifeochil lifeochil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontecagnano View Post
Hello Tim,

Apologies, the photos I attached have names identifying the genuine and fake marks which become more obvious if one saves them.

I'm afraid that is a fake stamp. it's identical to all the ones on brass sliders seen so far.

Graham
So the badge is also fake? I don't collect British badges so I don't know.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-08-20, 11:54 PM
lifeochil's Avatar
lifeochil lifeochil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 238
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontecagnano View Post
Both original and copy badges have been stamped with this mark. Unfortunately a lot of original badges have been rendered worthless by this.
Just to muddy the waters, a number of original unmarked anodised badges have also been stamped in this way. Fortunately, the fake stamp is different to the genuine one used on original M&B anodised badges. The top line of both stamps is 16.5mm long but there are a number of differences:

Genuine Stamp:
  • The letters are mores spaced out (positive kerning);
  • the ampersand is central between 'MARPLES' and 'BEASLEY';
  • the three horizontal bars on the second 'E' in 'BEASLEY' are the same length;
  • the 'B' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is under the 'RP' of 'MARPLES'; and
  • the 'M' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is under the 'A' of 'BEASLEY'.

Fake Stamp:
  • The letters are very close together (negative kerning);
  • the ampersand is noticeably closer to 'MARPLES' than 'BEASLEY';
  • the three horizontal bars on the second 'E' in 'BEASLEY' increase in length, top to bottom, appearing to follow the left hand edge of the 'Y' in 'BEASLEY';
  • the 'B' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is directly under the 'P' of 'MARPLES'; and
  • the 'M' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is directly under the 'S' of 'BEASLEY'.

If you have any anodised badges, with Marples & Beasley marked sliders, it's worth checking that you have the correct stamp as there are quite a few badges with the fake one in circulation.

Graham
In the last photo of the pair, is the fake stamp on a fake badge or is a badge from that maker worth more so the slider has been put on a genuine badge?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-08-20, 06:12 PM
pontecagnano's Avatar
pontecagnano pontecagnano is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 181
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
So the badge is also fake? I don't collect British badges so I don't know.
It's likely the badge is original, as making anodised badges is more specialised. In this instance it appears the fake stamp has been applied to the original unmarked slider on a genuine badge.
__________________
Chute & Dagger UK is the international elite unit insignia collectors' society, If you are interested in becoming a member, please e-mail us at chuteanddaggeruk@yahoo.co.uk for more details
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-08-20, 06:32 PM
pontecagnano's Avatar
pontecagnano pontecagnano is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 181
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
In the last photo of the pair, is the fake stamp on a fake badge or is a badge from that maker worth more so the slider has been put on a genuine badge?
The fake stamp has been applied to the original unstamped slider of a genuine badge not made by M&B. Proper slider transplants, on anodised badges, are fairly specialist and require skill not to make it obvious. Replacement sliders cost more and may be detectable. Stamping the original slider in situ is cheaper and easier.

Collectors will pay more for an uncommon maker's stamp to a particular Corps or Regiment.

The individual(s) behind the M&B caper probably bought badges by the pound, stamped them, and sold them at fairs for a higher price. An unusual stamp can turn a £4 badge into a £12 one. Elite units, will go for even more.
__________________
Chute & Dagger UK is the international elite unit insignia collectors' society, If you are interested in becoming a member, please e-mail us at chuteanddaggeruk@yahoo.co.uk for more details
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-08-20, 06:52 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
Yes very interesting. So are they fake or genuine?
In my belief ALL brass Marples & Beasley marked sliders are fakes as I’m yet to see any evidence they ever made metal ORs badges.

Re Anodised Aluminium badges and their marks I do not collect them so will leave it to those in this field to comment on what is good v’s bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontecagnano View Post
Collectors will pay more for an uncommon maker's stamp to a particular Corps or Regiment.

The individual(s) behind the M&B caper probably bought badges by the pound, stamped them, and sold them at fairs for a higher price. An unusual stamp can turn a £4 badge into a £12 one. Elite units, will go for even more.
By that logic if a £3-4 brigade badge is worthy of such fakery then where does that leave a far more desirable KC Para badge...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-08-20, 07:00 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontecagnano View Post
It's likely the badge is original, as making anodised badges is more specialised. In this instance it appears the fake stamp has been applied to the original unmarked slider on a genuine badge.
There is no breaking or cracking to the finish suggesting a heavy stamp has been applied latterly after manufacture.

To my knowledge, and I’m happy to be corrected by AA collectors, but unmarked sliders are quite unusual.

This seems an unlikely scenario that you are suggesting, that someone has obtained a scarce unmarked slidered genuine brigade badge and then latterly stamped a fake mark - perfectly centred and parallel - onto the slider, whilst the badge is attached without damaging the finish to the slider or the badge itself?

To make the impression for such crisp lettering a significant amount of pressure will need to have been applied to the MM stamp despite AA being relatively soft. That the badge will need to have been securely held in place whilst this was carried out without damaging it or the finish on the slider is hard to believe.

Can I ask how you know this second mark is fake rather than an alternate potentially later mark?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-08-20, 07:29 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pontecagnano View Post

Fake Stamp:
  • The letters are very close together (negative kerning);
  • the ampersand is noticeably closer to 'MARPLES' than 'BEASLEY';
  • the three horizontal bars on the second 'E' in 'BEASLEY' increase in length, top to bottom, appearing to follow the left hand edge of the 'Y' in 'BEASLEY';
  • the 'B' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is directly under the 'P' of 'MARPLES'; and
  • the 'M' of 'BIRMINGHAM' is directly under the 'S' of 'BEASLEY'.
Lastly, unless it’s my eyes your Para badge’s mark has all the attributes of the mark you describe as fake?

The letters are very close together, the ‘&’ is definitely closer to S of MARPLES, the 3 horizontal lines of the 2nd E increase in length, ‘P’ above ‘B’ and ‘M’ above ‘S’ etc.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 7908A139-DAA0-48B6-BFC7-3438B42D25F3.jpg (75.6 KB, 15 views)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-08-20, 09:07 PM
pontecagnano's Avatar
pontecagnano pontecagnano is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 181
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
By that logic if a £3-4 brigade badge is worthy of such fakery then where does that leave a far more desirable KC Para badge...
To stamp a slider is not a lot of work compared with faking a whole badge or changing the slider and if it triples the value of the badge... I was mainly referring to the many brass slidered examples here rather than the anodised ones.
__________________
Chute & Dagger UK is the international elite unit insignia collectors' society, If you are interested in becoming a member, please e-mail us at chuteanddaggeruk@yahoo.co.uk for more details
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-08-20, 09:44 PM
pontecagnano's Avatar
pontecagnano pontecagnano is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 181
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
There is no breaking or cracking to the finish suggesting a heavy stamp has been applied latterly after manufacture.

To my knowledge, and I’m happy to be corrected by AA collectors, but unmarked sliders are quite unusual.

This seems an unlikely scenario that you are suggesting, that someone has obtained a scarce unmarked slidered genuine brigade badge and then latterly stamped a fake mark - perfectly centred and parallel - onto the slider, whilst the badge is attached without damaging the finish to the slider or the badge itself?

To make the impression for such crisp lettering a significant amount of pressure will need to have been applied to the MM stamp despite AA being relatively soft. That the badge will need to have been securely held in place whilst this was carried out without damaging it or the finish on the slider is hard to believe.

Can I ask how you know this second mark is fake rather than an alternate potentially later mark?
The slider surface won't break or crack on A/A or brass as both are too soft. This isn't a case of putting the M&B die on the slider and whacking it with a hammer whilst hoping for the best. The engineering solution is to support the badge in a cradle using a non marking material, without clamping it, inserting a hard wooden shim (plywood is good) between the badge back and the slider to support this and use a small screw press containing the die to make the impression. It is possible to align and centre the die accurately using this method. This simple setup can be made by any small machine shop in about an hour.

I agree that later A/A badges are marked more often than not, older ones less so. I have a number of Para and other A/A badges that aren't.

The main reason I doubt the second mark is an alternate one is that it has appeared on badges for formations that were amalgamated and ceased to exist in the 1960s. The Yorks Bde is a good example. As the first mark was also used in the late sixties I would be surprised if such an overlap existed. The RAOC badges I illustrated each have the different M&B stamps. They are also from completely different dies. This wasn't obvious as I didn't include an image of the front. Leaving aside the two different marks, two completely different badges, from around the same time, would be unusual.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg M&B Yorks Bde Anodised Second Mark.jpg (74.5 KB, 9 views)
__________________
Chute & Dagger UK is the international elite unit insignia collectors' society, If you are interested in becoming a member, please e-mail us at chuteanddaggeruk@yahoo.co.uk for more details
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:54 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.