British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Photographs of British Servicemen and Women Wearing Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-08-20, 10:44 AM
Lemataf's Avatar
Lemataf Lemataf is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: France
Posts: 168
Default WW2 Royal Navy cap tallies

Hello,

Attached an interesting picture taken first half of 1940 (inscription on the back indicates «*Jan 1940*», if exact datation, was then based in a warm location), on anti-submarine trawler HMS Kelt.

This snapshot offers a nice sampling of worn cap tallies, at a time when anonymized ones (HMS, ...) should have been worn (I tend to understand). From left to right, one can read: «*...lution*» (HMS Resolution?), likely from bearer previous assignment, then «*... Reserve*», then no cap tally at all, it seems.

This triggers me a few questions then:
1- After the outbreak of the war, when exactly was the requirement for all RN seamen to use only anonymized cap tallies (HMS generic ones) introduced?

2- What could be the full cap tally label for the one ending by «*... Reserve*»?

3- During ww2 time period, did the RN regulation allow to wear a cap w/o any cap tally? If yes, in what specific circumstances?

Thank you for shedding some light on this & all the best,

Jean-Daniel
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 05F09BDB-2FEA-428D-B222-FD4A83B903D1.jpg (57.7 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg AB13384B-653C-45F7-94A3-9B4D01AC6F49.jpg (35.4 KB, 50 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-08-20, 11:37 AM
Nozzer Nozzer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,634
Default

I did a post some time back regarding the issue of ribbons during WW2.

I was fortunate in my early collecting days to be in contact with some very knowledgeable collectors and they were kind enough to share their notes with me. Unfortunately these notes were a little incomplete, but the book "Royal Navy Uniforms 1930-1945" by Martin J Bradley helped fill in the gaps. I would recommend anyone with an interest in Royal Navy Uniforms from WW2 to grab a copy.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...7&postcount=14
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-08-20, 12:17 PM
Lemataf's Avatar
Lemataf Lemataf is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: France
Posts: 168
Default

Hello Andy,

Thank you for your start of answer to my question #1 & reference to M. Bradley book. I had a look at your referenced & interesting post. I also already have my own copy of M. Bradley excellent book. Only problem is that my copy of this book and myself we are currently at a distance of approx. 800 km, one from each other, due to covid19 + business reasons.

I would assume that for the RN, same happened as for Marine Nationale & Kriegsmarine, first instructions were given quite quick after war outbreak (Sept/Oct 39) to use generic cap tallies. It then took some time to see all cap tallies with precise unit indications to be completely replaced by the generic ones.

Cheers,

Jean-Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-08-20, 01:29 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 876
Default

Lemataf, not my field but I’ve seen references to “Fleet Reserve” . Would that have been on a cap tally? Regards, D.J.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-08-20, 02:11 PM
Lemataf's Avatar
Lemataf Lemataf is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: France
Posts: 168
Default

Hello D.J.,

From what can be seen from the two last letters from the word before «*Reserve*», «*Fleet Reserve*» could indeed perfectly match.

Thank You & Best Regards,

Jean-Daniel
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-08-20, 03:04 PM
Postwarden's Avatar
Postwarden Postwarden is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Garden of England
Posts: 3,224
Default

This may help.

Admiralty Fleet Order 4430 28/11/40 - Cap Ribbons
Economy in issue. Issue of cap ribbons lettered with ships names or with special lettering (eg H.M. Submarines, H.M. Patrol Service etc) will be temporarily suspended when stocks are used up. “H.M.S.” only ribbons to be supplied in future and to be used for all services. Issues reduced to one on first issue.

And isn't that a rather large gun for an armed trawler?

Jon
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-08-20, 05:12 PM
Lemataf's Avatar
Lemataf Lemataf is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: France
Posts: 168
Default

Hello Jon,

All clear now with this very useful shared information.

This picture is part of a set of other ones, all related to AS Trawler Kelt, and the ship’s name is hand written on the back, together with the date.
HMS Kelt was armed with a 4’’ gun, and what is visible on this pic (& the others of same lot I have) looks consistent with this (together with the rather typical 4’’ shells storage, in dedicated single shell places, on the floor, all around the gun, visible in background). By the way, talking of such shell storage -observed too for lots of corvettes-, I wonder if this practice lasted long, as I would expect the ammo to be quite sensitive to sea salt, rust, ice etc...

Thank You & All the best,

Jean-Daniel

Last edited by Lemataf; 09-08-20 at 05:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-08-20, 10:27 AM
Staffsyeoman Staffsyeoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,129
Default

The central tally will be "Royal Fleet Reserve"

https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/RFR/RFR.html

There were two classes of men:

Class A comprises long-service pensioners who are liable to go afloat in emergency , and who, as Royal Fleet Reserve men, submit to a week's training every year.

Class B, comprises men who have left the Navy without pensions, and whose services were lost to the country until the establishment of this Reserve. Men under Class B also undergo a week's training annually in the fleets at sea until they attained fifty-five years of age.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-08-20, 11:00 AM
Lemataf's Avatar
Lemataf Lemataf is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: France
Posts: 168
Default

Hello staffsyeoman,

Thank you for the excellent additional information provided.

Sorry L&G if lots of different questions pop up in this thread, but staffsyeoman contribution triggers another question: in French Marine Nationale, myself & my comrads were instructed to always sew our cap tallies so that the middle letter of the word(s) on it would find itself centered & ~ between our eyes / right below the front anchor. So were instructed too my father in the early 50s, and my grand father in the mid 30s.

I had a quick look on the net, to try to find out what was the policy for this in the RN in the 40s, and where the cap tally knot was expected to be placed, but did not find the answer. If one of you knows the answer, I would be grateful to him, if he could share this too.

Last, my initial questions #3 still remain unanswered. Any idea on this too please?

Thanks & Best Regards,

Jean-Daniel

Last edited by Lemataf; 11-08-20 at 05:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-08-20, 09:02 AM
Lemataf's Avatar
Lemataf Lemataf is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: France
Posts: 168
Default H.M. Minesweepers. cap tally

Good day,

attached is a RN cap I found while living in the UK, some years ago. For me, it looks like a trade model, with its "H.M. Minesweepers." cap tally, with label in gold wire. Would assume then that this could be a good ww2 period, or earlier, cap.

What do you think of this cap & its cap tally? During which period has this label been used?

Thanks for your lights & All the best,

JD
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_0005 copie.jpg (29.6 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0011 copie.jpg (32.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0007 copie.jpg (25.5 KB, 10 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:30 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.