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  #1  
Old 22-11-08, 11:59 AM
dog watch dog watch is offline
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Default Royal highlanders badges Canadian or British?

I have here two badges of the Black Watch, M'n question about this two is becase the text is LACESSIT with a I =(malitia) Canadian, becase with a E is empire. But from the 20s the British oslo whent from LACESSET to LACESSIT with a I. So now m'n question is, are this badges Canadian militia/WW1, or British 1920s? Is ther some body how cane thel me??

And regards to Bill A. how help me so fare with the I E question.

regards,

Hans
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2xroyal hi. badges:v.jpg (20.0 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg 2xRoyal hi.badges:achter:b.jpg (20.8 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 2xroyal hi.badges:brass.jpg (19.4 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg 2xroyal hi.badges:witmetal.jpg (23.2 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 2xroyal hi.badges: achter.jpg (22.3 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by Bill A; 22-11-08 at 12:15 PM.
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  #2  
Old 22-11-08, 02:28 PM
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The British Black watch used whitemetal badges with both spellings. Your badge could have been used from 1901 onwards. They standardised to to the single Lacessit spelling from May 1925 (source K&K Vol 2). Any British Lacesset badge must date from before then.

The brass one is definately Canadian (see earlier threads) as it cannot be British.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 22-11-08 at 04:08 PM.
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  #3  
Old 22-11-08, 03:51 PM
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I tend to go with Alan on this one. The brass badge could have been worn by the 13th Bn. or the 42nd Bn. CEF. Also, the Canadian badges never had the Sphinx on the white metal badge.
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Old 22-11-08, 04:08 PM
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I would add that if your white metal badge is British then the date of use was from 1901-34.

In 1934 a change of regimental title led to the scrolls being removed from the design. Photographs do exist of these badges stil being worn up to the early years of WW2 presumably when they were using up old stock or old soldiers hanging on to old designs.

Alan
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  #5  
Old 22-11-08, 04:29 PM
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Alan, I always wondered why the change in design. In your opinion, was it done on a whim from a new CO, or by the ACD, or requested by some unknown War Office authority, or simply by the maker to facilitate the stamping ????
Jo
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  #6  
Old 22-11-08, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
Also, the Canadian badges never had the Sphinx on the white metal badge.
Jo
Were there any other differences from the territorial Black Watch badge?
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  #7  
Old 22-11-08, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
Alan, I always wondered why the change in design. In your opinion, was it done on a whim from a new CO, or by the ACD, or requested by some unknown War Office authority, or simply by the maker to facilitate the stamping ????
Jo

Jo,

According to Gaylor when in 1934 the Black Watch changed their unit title to the Black Watch (the Royal Highland Regiment), they decided to change the order of the title scrolls. However the scroll lengths did not work as the lower ones were too short, so they did away with them completely.

Why they changed their title is another question. Presumably it would be due to the Regtl RHQ and the CO, (or Regtl Colonel), rather than the ACD, WD or the maker. Similarly the Inniskilling's changed their design in 1926 due to the wishes of the CO and regtl officers. They had to petition the Army Board for permission to do so but it was a regtl wish to change.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 22-11-08 at 06:28 PM.
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  #8  
Old 22-11-08, 06:43 PM
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Thanks Alan, for this interesting information. Much appreciated.
Cheers
Jo
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  #9  
Old 22-11-08, 06:59 PM
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I agree with most of the points, however, this type of badge would not have been worn by the 13th Battalion, CEF. The 13th initially wore their distinct badge in white metal, and then transitioned to a bronze / chocolate coloured type. Both versions were worn from approx mid WWI onward, and into the inter-war period.

Both the 42nd and 73rd Battalions wore bronze "Imperial" pattern badges.

I have similar badges with both the Lacessit and Lacesset spelling, and with differing die features, so likely from different manufacturers.
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  #10  
Old 22-11-08, 07:43 PM
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Alan,
What you appear to have ommited ( sorry in advance if I am wrong ) is that Gaylors says ".....A curious feature of all Black Watch badges appears to be an inability to decide upon the spelling of Lacessit on the motto band,it is sometimes struck Lacesset

I note that K and K Vol 2 only refers to Lacessit but the text refers to Black Watch badges after 1934, or am I wrong ?

No mention of dates for the different spelliing in either of Bloomers books.

Peter
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  #11  
Old 22-11-08, 08:14 PM
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Adam, you are right . I meant to say 42nd and 73rd. The 13th Bn. had their own badge (brown badge), (The Royal Highlanders of Canada/13th Batt. 1st Canadian Division),should have rechecked Meek's book on front of me. They really carried over this pattern after 1stWW? Thanks for correcting me. By the way, Meek shows for the 73rd, the maple leaf pattern badge, Strange isn't? Stewart shows the same with maple leafs collars and a #73 (as title?).
Jo
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Last edited by Voltigeur; 22-11-08 at 08:26 PM.
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  #12  
Old 22-11-08, 08:47 PM
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Cross reference with mistakes in published works thread. Here is a misconception that has been around for over 30 years. The album of the 73rd Battalion clearly shows:
a) all ranks, officers, nco's and privates wearing a St Andrew's pattern glengarry badge
b) some ranks wearing a 73rd maple leaf pattern collar
From this evidence and other photo evidence, it would be a logical conclusion that the 73rd wore the St Andrew's pattern badge, and as has been discussed probably of the imperial pattern. (Likely the brass pattern ones.)
Now, what is the story on the maple leaf pattern badges? Most references list the maple leaf pattern badges for the 73rd. Why, when and where did this badge get used?
There is one photo in Military Antiques and Collectables of the Great War (Taboika 2007) that may be a maple leaf pattern badge in wear. P 219-220. (The photographic evidence suggests that the collars should be more common than the cap badges.)
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  #13  
Old 22-11-08, 09:34 PM
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Bill, maybe we will never get a straight or definitive answer, as such, on this topic. Perhaps someone made the initial mistake and then this same mistake was taken as gospel up to a few years ago (ref:73rd badge). It's a pity nobody from that time is still around, he could have given us something to work with.
Jo
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“There are things we know that we know,” “There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.”
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  #14  
Old 23-11-08, 04:46 AM
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Incredible - this is quite a revelation! Thanks to Jo for posting those photos in the previous thread. I have been trying to get a 73 maple leaf cap for a while now to complete my set of front line infantry - and almost dropped $800 for one just recently! The 73 maple leaf cap badge is obviously a desirable badge for its rarity - but no @*%$@ wonder it is so expensive! However, I will be quite happy with a brass BW glengarry for less than 1/4 the price!!

Babin may be one of the earliest publications with this omission/mistake. I think his book on Canadian CEF badges was published in the 1950's.

Cheers, Ian.

Last edited by whizzbang; 23-11-08 at 04:55 AM.
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  #15  
Old 23-11-08, 06:12 AM
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Thanks, I have found out more in one day than what I have than in 3 years. So this tipe of badge is 1901 strik, not 1908., anthel 1934, and not 1937.
The standarddised the text in may 1924 to LACESSIT. And in 1934 te title scrols whent off the badge becase the Black Watch became the Royal Highlanders regiment, and this text whas to long(well the Canadians make it fit on ther badges?).
The brass is canadian, becase the British did not worn this tipe.
What I now is that the 13th worn the militia badge pre-/biging war only, ase soon the have the 13th badge(mid war 15/16) the took over the 13th badge. Please correct me if i'm rong.
The 42nd and the 73rd worn the miltia/empire black watch tipe badge only in Brass.
But wher is leafing the other 42nd badge(Charlton no-42B), I never have seen this badge on a photo ect. of that time. whas this olso disbanded by the british when the came in England?
And the 73rd maphel leaf badge, I never have seen a photo of a soldier whit this badge, whas this olso disbanded when the came in England?

For now thanks helping me out so fare?( And i hope m'n english typing is not to bad)
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