British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 15-10-12, 07:12 PM
Peter J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Pagri Badges - Definition

Not wishing to hijack Ivan's thread here, I thought it might be worth opening a small spin-off thread.

Patently obvious to many no doubt, but I wonder how members would define a badge as being for the pagri? Would it purely be down to slider length (date of badge issue notwithstanding, of course)?

If not, then how would such a badge be identified if the slider was missing... would it be possible?

Is the example below be a pagri badge?:

RASC%20(1).jpgRASC%20(2).jpg

Cheers,

Peter

Last edited by Peter J; 15-10-12 at 07:23 PM.
  #2  
Old 15-10-12, 11:46 PM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,291
Default

Peter

an thought provoking topic, it will be interesting to see the responses.

These days I pay little attention to the fixing. I try to study photos from the period 1881 - 1922 which is the period that interests me and judge from that.

The badges worn on the white FSH are a little easier to ascertain, in most cases the full dress badges and the FSC badges were also approved for the FSH and I tend to see this born out with the full dress badges in use. I am not aware that the fittings at this time were in gereral, any different for the FSH than for the other headdress.

Later in 1903 we had the effort to try to use the HPC , glengarry grenades etc noted here in post # 9.

http://britishbadgeforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=25308

I think c. 1903 is where these long sliders begin to come in but I am more inclined to think that they were originally intended for the so called slouch hat.

With regard to the khaki FSH , although badges were expressly forbidden for wear I sometimes see un-official badges in wear and I get the feeling that regiments exercised a lot of freedom in what they unoficially wore in this headdress pre 1922.
  #3  
Old 16-10-12, 12:00 AM
SAS1 SAS1 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,383
Default

Do you mean 'puggaree', the strip of folded cloth around a Sun helmet, pith hat or bush hat? A 'pagri' is a turban...
  #4  
Old 16-10-12, 03:37 AM
Peter J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John,

Many thanks for your reply.

I dare say my question is perhaps a little broad, simply aiming, as I am, at the somewhat general term we all tend casually to use here on the forum to describe these particular badges.

As you say, it will be interesting to see any reposnses that members may make.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAS1,

Thanks also for your reply.

Without wishing to split hairs, my understanding is that the words 'pagri' and 'puggaree' mean one and the same thing, the former being a commonly used variant spelling of the latter, either of which can be used when referring to (as in this case) the thin scarf-like muslin band used on (for example) the FSH. The term 'puggaree' originating from the Hindi word, 'Pagri'.

But again, this is possibly splitting hairs, though certainly an interesting side-issue to the main point of how one might actually define the so-called pagri/puggaree badge

Thanks again, gents,

Peter.
  #5  
Old 16-10-12, 07:45 AM
SAS1 SAS1 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,383
Default

I guess most collectors would think of one thing whichever term was used, but they are two distinctly different items, despite the fact a puggaree has its origins in the pagri. One is an item of headwear, often worn as a symbol of honour, the other an item that accompanies a piece of headgear, both with a lot of meaning behind the colours and number of folds.

I have RAF badges for both the puggaree and the pagri, again, two distinctly different items.
  #6  
Old 16-10-12, 08:21 AM
grumpy grumpy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,462
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAS1 View Post
I guess most collectors would think of one thing whichever term was used, but they are two distinctly different items, despite the fact a puggaree has its origins in the pagri. One is an item of headwear, often worn as a symbol of honour, the other an item that accompanies a piece of headgear, both with a lot of meaning behind the colours and number of folds.

I have RAF badges for both the puggaree and the pagri, again, two distinctly different items.
Dangerous ground!

The usually accepted authority on Anglo-Indian is HOBSON JOBSON.

This gives Pagri as the "Hindi .. in the colloquial for a scarf of cotton or silk wound round the head in turban form, to protest the head from the sun ......
also spellings puggry, puggerie,pagari, puggaree, puckerie ...."


I think you need to substantiate your definition.

The OED does nothing to contradict the above.
  #7  
Old 16-10-12, 08:52 AM
davec2's Avatar
davec2 davec2 is offline
Member 2008-16- Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Tamworth, Staffs.
Posts: 3,519
Default

Hi gents,

I do not think anyone is disputing the definitions of Puggaree or Pagri, I for one am just saying that if I write Pagri badge, everyone knows what I am talking about, the expression serves it's purpose, to me anyway ?

Other examples for instance, how many people call a helmet back star, a helmet plate ? or rank stars, ' pips ', chevrons, ' stripes ' etc, etc, I know a member who hates the words pips and stripes but it doesn't stop people referring to them as such.

Dave.
  #8  
Old 16-10-12, 12:07 PM
Peter J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

So what about the RASC badge in the opening post, gents... is it a Pagri/Puggaree badge? If so, why, but if not, why not?

PJ
  #9  
Old 16-10-12, 12:13 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 879
Default

Having "Broken Bread" at your table Dave, I've no wish to get into a contest with you but methinks you are bowing to the modern generation of texters and their abominable spelling habits! Personally, I never heard the word "Pagri" untill I joined this forum and always knew what the word "Puggaree" meant. Your argument re Pips and Stars, Chevrons and stripes are acceptable names for the articles in question but as SAS1 so rightly points out, a Pagri and a Puggaree are two distinctly different items. From your friend across the pond, DJ.
  #10  
Old 16-10-12, 12:29 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

I know exactly what you mean by 'pagri' badge - but I personally choose to spell it puggaree. However, you will not find either word in any WO document concerning badges. They are listed as FSH badges or Universal Headdress (aka slouch) badges. Many were also worn on other types of headdress - eg cap (which illustrates Peter's original query !). One reason to stick to headdress definition is that badges worn on the FSH, for example, were sometimes worn on the helmet itself, above the puggaree.
  #11  
Old 16-10-12, 01:05 PM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,366
Default

Dress regulations 1900 state that Puggarees will be worn with helmets at all stations abroad( para 1189 ). There is also a refererence to Puggaree in Appendix 1 ( iii) which says:

" Except where otherwise stated,the Field Cap or Glengarry Badge is worn on the Puggaree " There is no mention of the word Pagri in the index.

Dress Regulations 1934 refer to Pagris in Paragraph 42 under "Helmet ,Universal,Foreign Service.,the regulations say:

"White pagris are worn with white helmets at all stations abroad except by the Buffs ( East Kent Regiment ) who wear a buff coloured pagri,The Northumberland Fusiliers who wear a red and white pagri and the Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry who wear a red pagri.The badge is worn on the centre of the pagri on the front of the helmet, and should be fitted so as not to perforate the helmet.Plain khaki pagris are in all cases worn with the khaki helmet"

There is no mention of the word Puggaree in the index to Dress Regulations 1934.

Unfortunately the DR`s of 1900 and 1934 are the only copies I have.

P.B.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg img042.jpg (54.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg img043.jpg (100.4 KB, 11 views)
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection

Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )”

Last edited by Peter Brydon; 16-10-12 at 01:27 PM.
  #12  
Old 16-10-12, 01:10 PM
davec2's Avatar
davec2 davec2 is offline
Member 2008-16- Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Tamworth, Staffs.
Posts: 3,519
Default

I think this thread has gone somewhat sideways, the fact is that Peter was originally asking about a long slidered badge and wondered if it was a Pagri/Puggaree badge.

I use a Readers Digest Oxford, Complete Wordfinder when I'm unsure of a spelling and I can still make silly mistakes but just to highlight this one instance, the word Pagri is not in my book as a leading word !

Puggaree is, the text reads thus :- 1 An Indian turban. 2 a thin muslin scarf tied round a sun-helmet etc. and shielding the neck. [Hindi pagri turban].

Individuals' preferences on how they write, has to vary ( we are not all highly educated or as articulate as some members, myself included ) and sadly, it is not always as important to some, I personally do try but there are times when my hands hurt even when typing.

For David, I do not use text type when sending text messages but I do, when necessary, shorten words ( I am a great one for using I'm or I've etc ) but in reallity, it isn't anyones business how others use the English Language and it certainly is not the business of individual members to criticise others for their poor grammar, I have no intention of upsetting my friends and members but how we use the English language does not have anything to do with Militaria, in my opinion of course.

Take a deep breath and stay calm.....

Dave.
  #13  
Old 16-10-12, 01:13 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,462
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artynut View Post
Having "Broken Bread" at your table Dave, I've no wish to get into a contest with you but methinks you are bowing to the modern generation of texters and their abominable spelling habits! Personally, I never heard the word "Pagri" untill I joined this forum and always knew what the word "Puggaree" meant. Your argument re Pips and Stars, Chevrons and stripes are acceptable names for the articles in question but as SAS1 so rightly points out, a Pagri and a Puggaree are two distinctly different items. From your friend across the pond, DJ.
If a a Pagri and a Puggaree are two different items I think we may ask "on whose authority", see my 0921 above.

Additional collateral for the two words meaning the same is in Carman's Dictionary of Military Uniform.

Proof, please?
  #14  
Old 16-10-12, 03:09 PM
badger123's Avatar
badger123 badger123 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Yorkshire, England
Posts: 1,991
Default

If I have read it correctly, Peter's post at #17 shows evidence that indicate that the piece of material worn around the FSH has been called a puggeree as well as a pagri at different times.

Surely it follows that any badge fitted to such a piece of material is a pagri or a puggeree badge?



Ivan
  #15  
Old 16-10-12, 03:20 PM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,366
Default

Ivan,

That is my understanding.

To go back to the badge that started this thread, I have come across examples of badges with similar long thin sliders to regiments that have never served in locations where they would have worn a FSH. The post 1939 other ranks badge of the Liverpool Irish is one example .

Peter
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection

Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )”
Closed Thread

Tags
pagri, slider-length

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:46 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.