14th Hussars badges (cap and collar)

[1stTankie]

I am grateful to Terry Jones for his help in providing additional photograhic evidence. I wrote to him via Ebay for information regarding the possible publication dates of certain 14H postcards, published by Gale and Poldon which he has currently offered for sale. He informs me that this particular series would date from 1902-1903 which of course coincides with the return of 14H from the Boer War.Whilst many of these are of relevance, two in particular are of direct interest. I draw your attention to:
Item No. 360627638680, 14th(King's) Hussars On Return from S Africa
Item No. 161000873136, 14th(King's) Hussars Warrant & NC Officers

The first is a regimental parade showing all ranks in Service Marching Order as worn in the campaign in South Africa. All ranks are shown wearing Foreign Service helmets including the officers. It is clear from this that no badges, oval or otherwise were worn. As Rob states earlier Identification (TRF?) appears to be a flash on the side of the helmet. (Q: What was it?)
The second however, in which we see the WOs and NCOs, most of whom appear to be wearing the Boer War medals, features a junior officer, c1903 remember, with an oval badge. in his cap.
Compare the appearance of this badge with the oval arm badge of the WOs and NCOs. They are very similar in aspect.
We know that the 14th Hussars returned in 1903 and by 1906 were on their way again, this time to India where photographs (L&D) show they were wearing the Hawk at that time.
So, in summary, the oval badge was worn by officers in 1903 and thereafter the timing of the introduction of the Hawk remains elusive. Did the soldiery wear any kind of headress suitable for the oval badge. Again, in another postcard, Terry Jones shows the regiment wearing Slouch hats on a mounted parade but badges are not visible. Could this be the answer?
May I acknowledge the help from Terry once again and request members not to print all or parts of the postcards mentioned on the Forum as this may infringe copyright protocols.

Best wishes

Gordon

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by Rockape

Well done Gordon, a nice conclusion.

Hi Gar (or should that be Gaz?)

It would be nice if that were the conclusion. Sadly at this stage all we really know from photographs is that the 14H officers wore an oval badge probably between 1900 and 1906.
We don't know what it looked like; how does it differ from the soldiers' badge?
There are lots of ORs' badges in circulation and collections, some with lugs and some with sliders. Where were they worn; in the slouch hat?
I feel we are some way from a satisfactory conclusion at the moment but we'll keep trying.

My thanks for your input, given the numbers on the Forum it's not a subject that grabs too many.

Best wishes

Gordon

[1stTankie]

I wrote to Terry Jones, c/o Ebay, yesterday and he took the trouble to put up the rest of his 14H postcards. One of these, in the series published by Gale and Poldon, Item Number: 161000873134, c1902-1903, depicts the 14H on manoeuvres, mounted and riding down a country lane, I assume somewhere in the region of Aldershot, perhaps near Long Valley. The officers in front are wearing forage caps but, quite clearly, those following are wearing slouch hats. In particular the soldier on the right of the postcard has his head turned to his right thus exposing the left-hand side of the slouch hat on which there appears to be a badge.
Peering at it through my inadequate magnifying glass there seems to be a badge near the top and (at this stage my imagination runs wild) it could be oval.
Opinions please.

Best wishes

Gordon

[Rockape]

Gordon,

I zoomed in as far as possible on the photo. The photo graining doesn't make it easy. My eyes see a black hawk type shape in the top centre of his hat. When the resolution is this poor it becomes very subjective. Your eyes see what they want to see.

Gar

[LONGSHANKS]

Hi all, just a quick question.

What period was the small pattern 14th Kings Hussars cap used in. Was it used in the Great War or after?

Just curious.

Cheers

Simon

[Alan O]

It was worn post WW1 up to when the 14/20 eagle badge (K&K 1907) was adopted circa 1929 bu tthe regiment had been wearing the regimental eagle since c.1926. Whether there was sealed small sized cap badge or whether the smaller collar was used I am not certain. You would need to find the pattern card for the smaller badge.

K&K give a Mar 1932 date for the 14/20th eagle badge being sealed but the regt were wearing them under regtl arrangements from the mid 1920's. The NAM confirm this sealed pattern date.

K&K 775 (14/20 Garter) was a collar and not a cap as the regt wore it as a collar with the eagle as a cap.

[Robthereiver]

Simon

The badge I think you are referring to was the final official cap badge of the 14H, and was sealed on 18th November 1919 (SP No.3312/1919) together with
collar badges. The centre was voided and it had a slider fitting.
These Cap badges were wore until c.1926, when the 14H Squadrons, unofficially adopted the Prussian Eagle again.

Regards
Rob

[dubaiguy]

Also I presume that K&K 775 is a misattributed collar.

Thanks

Alan


Alan re your comment on KK 775 possibly being a misattributed collar, I have a voided 14/20 H on a slider. There is no evident sign of it ever being a collar.

It would be interesting to see evidence of a SP for this badge's adoption in headdress post amalgamation in 1922 and prior to the re-adoption of the Prussian Eagle.

KK states the eagle was sealed 7/3/1932, but Rob interestingly indicates it was unofficially adopted in circa 1926. So that would give a span of 4 to 10 years for the possible life of KK775 in headdress even if the 14H squadrons retained their old badge.

Cheers
DG

[Robthereiver]

Hi Alan

Thanks, but I would mention, a lot of this information originates from the late David Linaker.

There's no doubt copies abound and collectors need to be careful.

As I understand matters, the solid collars are the 1916-19 pattern sealed as SP No.8674,(along with the similar but larger cap badge 16th Feb. 1916) and it was a LH one of these that was worn as a Cap Badge, as opposed to the much disliked 'Cartwheel'.

What I'm not sure about is whether these LH collars were worn in the cap with the original EW loop fixings, which I suspect was the case initially, or if they were converted as time progressed, regimentally to a slider?

I agree with you regarding KK775, it does appear to be a misattributed collar.

Regards
Rob

[LONGSHANKS]

This is the one I just picked up. I take it not voided, it's a fake.

Simon

[Frank Kelley]

Gentlemen,
I was of the opinion that both unvoided and voided original examples can be found.

[Alan O]

While they can be found I have seen both being reproduced so their existence is not proof of use.

Although the regt merged in 1920 there was some years before the 14/20 badge was used as in common with many cavalry regts of the time. Other regts retained the 2 old designs in use with the junior regt being worn by the junior (generally D Sqn) sqn of the merged regt. If the small 14 H badge was introduced in 1919 and the regt adopted the eagle in 1926 then there was only 6 years to fit in a 14/20 H small badge. There remains the possibility of its official issue to recruits in the uK but immediate replacement by the eagle in India between 1926 and 32 but this is only supposition without a sealed pattern card or photos.

[Robthereiver]

Hello DG

I think the 14/20H collar was sealed in 1930, and in all honesty IMO I cannot see a need or purpose for it prior to then.

If your badge is genuine and contemporary then I am at a loss to suggest who wore it and why. The only thing that comes to mind is in the FSC? but once the Prussian eagle was reinstated I thought that was pretty much it.

However, I'll look into it further and post anything I find.

Rob

[irish]

Dug out my 14th Kings Hussars to post. Hopefully it will contribute to the discussion. Honestly I had wondered why such a small badge was slidered @ 26mm. Thought possibly a back hat badge, however this unit did not wear them.

This is voided as much as a badge of this size can be.

Best
Jack

[Alan O]

Looks like a good one to me. As you say properly pierced throughout.

The only regt to wear a back badge were the Glosters and believe me they do go on about it ALOT.