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  #16  
Old 15-10-22, 01:51 PM
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cbuehler cbuehler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Miller View Post
Colin Churchill shows Bronze OSD collar badges worn from 1902, it would seem like an odd mix if there wasn't a cap badge for Officers to purchase to match them, but I'm sure stranger things have happened.

Rob
KOSB OSD collar badges were always bronzed, as were all the rest of the Scottish regiments which wore collar badges in OSD, excepting the Cameronians which were blackened.

CB

PS, there were also a number of cavalry regiments which changed the cap badge from bronze to silver or gilt for wear with OSD, but retained the bronzed collar badges.
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Last edited by cbuehler; 15-10-22 at 02:00 PM.
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  #17  
Old 15-10-22, 03:30 PM
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Marsh was selling these in bronze or whatever was being passed off as bronze at the time. I’ve also seen strikes from this die in WM and silvered finish.
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  #18  
Old 15-10-22, 04:38 PM
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I stand by my comment on this Badge the pattern used is an officers pattern KOSB badge, a genuine example attached to this post (picture 2), points to note: the regimental title in the circlet is fretted as is the top scroll, the Lion on the the Royal Crest crisp with no spare metal around it, (unlike to bronze example picture in this thread) the lower scroll is curved indicating that it is an officers pattern, OR's Pattern badges have a wave pattern lower scroll, see attached example (picture 1). In conclusion this is a poor restrike of and officers pattern cap badge in a rough metal not authorised and backed up by a sealed pattern.

I refer you to Cap Badges of the First World War. Part 1. - The Regular Forces. By Julian Bowsher and David Linaker This paper was a paper the first of two articles to deal with WW1 cap badges authorised by the War Office and the metals used. Page 86 of this paper and I quote: All Scottish badges were in White Metal except that of the Royal Scots which, of course, was now made in all Gilding Metal (GM), new dies would have been created for these one metal (all GM) badges, thus the design will not necessary have been identical to the previous By Metal pattern of the RS.
I have published this paper on the forum in the past for members who wish to read it in detail, a search should bring it up.

I reiterate: I know my Regiment having served in it for 25 years and wrote three books about our Uniforms, Badges and Insignia, so I feel that I can speak as authority on my Regiment. By all means if you have a bronze KOSB cap badge it is not a real authorised Pattern KOSB badge, it is a fake created by money making fraudsters, it is your choice to do what you wish with it, but at the end of the day it is a fake.

Please be aware, knowing you subject will always help you make the right choice, there are experts in the field of badges and insignia on this forum who are more than willing to help and give genuine helpful advise for free.

Warm regards
Hiram
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  #19  
Old 16-10-22, 12:55 PM
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Thank you Hiram very good of you to set me straight!and a lovely fretted badge you posted, is it made by Anderson’s of Edinburgh? I love the Officer’s KOSB badges the fretting makes them look stunning and am fortunate enough to have a Q/C & K/C, would a backing material (Red Felt) have been behind the badge to show Fretwork?

Thanks Luke, Martin Marsh has a lot to answer for!

And blinkered vision here on my part, as I know OSD,s. aren’t made the way the badge I posted is! At least the Manchester Pals is a good one!

Many thanks all, Billy
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  #20  
Old 16-10-22, 06:30 PM
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Hi Billy,

Thankyou for you kind comment and yes it is an Anderson of Edinburgh hallmarked 1923 badge and NO Red felt: only the Royal Scots 1st Bn use Red felt behind their cap badge and I believe the 2nd use Green.

Warm wishes
Hiram
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  #21  
Old 22-11-22, 01:48 PM
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Thought I’d add this badge here in case it’s not picked up on the other thread which is a bit of a jolly.

This very unusual badge has come into my possession.

No doubt the crown has been off and expertly replaced. The re-positioning of the loops also looks very professionally done, the pinched loops themselves I like as you can see gold braze run down them.

My favourite aspect is how finely the central flag is voided to produce the fork. The badge itself feels, dare I say, heavier than GM. I do not believe it is a repro.

I’ve given it a gentle clean to remove the active corrosion and photographed it next to a WM badge to prove it isn’t discoloured GS or the like.

I’d be grateful to hear members thoughts on it whatever their views on purpose or authenticity.
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  #22  
Old 22-11-22, 04:54 PM
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Luke,

There is no authenticity to this badge because there is no sealed pattern of that design, it has the general pattern of the Birmingham Manufacturers post 1901 of which there were a few, nevertheless, they all used the same sealed pattern as issued by the War Office of the day, in producing the King's Own Scottish Borderers OR's cap badges. Moreover, they all adhered to the sealed pattern which stipulated White Metal and the loops positioned central.

Your badge is a bastardization in more ways than one, wrong base metal, loops in the wrong position, I cant fathom why a crown would be replaced, it could not have been a Victorian crown as the badge pattern is post 1901, so in essence there has been some tampering going on for what ever reason.
Regards cleaning up around the the central flag on the castle turret, which is superficial, when you are left with extra metal around the tail of the lion on the Regimental Crest.

It may feel nice and weight that bit more, but that does not add any authenticity to the item. In fact its a poor repro in the wrong base metal and other issues. Sorry.

Warm wishes
Hiram
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  #23  
Old 25-11-22, 08:32 PM
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I do respect your opinion and extensive research Hiram but to imply authenticity hinges on a sealed pattern existing and total conformity to it can, in my experience, be a tad short of reality sometimes.

Below are a selection of badges, no sealed patterns exist yet they very much do, are authentic and feature in period photos.

Conversely we know of plenty examples of badges ‘authorised but not worn’.

Throw into the mix also manufacturing errors (metals & designs) some of which are well recorded.

Altogether this adds intrigue to the hobby but makes it one where sometimes the official records do not tell ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’ when it comes to the realities of the world beyond the walls of the War Office.

I’m no KOSB specialist but I can say it’s certainly not from the repro dies in the Marsh catalogue. Admittedly repros neither start nor end with Marsh. But I’d also hazard with a high degree of confidence that whatever it may be, from its construction, materials and the fixings it is of period manufacture.

I would entirely agree there are a couple unfathomable aspects to its construction. Maybe one day something will turn up and until then it’ll live safely in my ? box.

Best wishes,

Luke
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  #24  
Old 26-11-22, 08:40 AM
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Is there a slim possibility, a very slim possibility, that the Marsh catalogue did not appear to a collector as a series of stone slabs.
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  #25  
Old 26-11-22, 10:39 AM
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Sorry volunteers soldier I don’t quite understand.

Do you mean is it possibly a commission piece a collector has had made to fill a perceived gap?
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  #26  
Old 26-11-22, 01:24 PM
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Did the infamous Marsh only sell reproduction badges?
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  #27  
Old 26-11-22, 01:31 PM
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No and I had both considered and acknowledged that above where I said in the penultimate paragraph ‘‘Admittedly repros neither start nor end with Marsh.’’ It’s a trap all too many people fall into.

However, I do not believe the badge is a product from a ‘fake die’ of any origin.

When I have the time I will look for an analogous WM example.
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  #28  
Old 26-11-22, 06:33 PM
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I would not call it strange and certainly not unique, the Parachute Regiment would be a case in point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Miller View Post
Colin Churchill shows Bronze OSD collar badges worn from 1902, it would seem like an odd mix if there wasn't a cap badge for Officers to purchase to match them, but I'm sure stranger things have happened.

Rob
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  #29  
Old 26-11-22, 08:02 PM
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The scottish infantry officers generally wore silver badges and not bronze probably because of the type of hats.
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  #30  
Old 27-11-22, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
I do respect your opinion and extensive research Hiram but to imply authenticity hinges on a sealed pattern existing and total conformity to it can, in my experience, be a tad short of reality sometimes.

Below are a selection of badges, no sealed patterns exist yet they very much do, are authentic and feature in period photos.

Conversely we know of plenty examples of badges ‘authorised but not worn’.

Throw into the mix also manufacturing errors (metals & designs) some of which are well recorded.

Altogether this adds intrigue to the hobby but makes it one where sometimes the official records do not tell ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’ when it comes to the realities of the world beyond the walls of the War Office.

I’m no KOSB specialist but I can say it’s certainly not from the repro dies in the Marsh catalogue. Admittedly repros neither start nor end with Marsh. But I’d also hazard with a high degree of confidence that whatever it may be, from its construction, materials and the fixings it is of period manufacture.

I would entirely agree there are a couple unfathomable aspects to its construction. Maybe one day something will turn up and until then it’ll live safely in my ? box.

Best wishes,

Luke
Luke,

I am speaking from having served in the Regiment and a member of the regimental Museum Committee spent years studying our history with access to our extensive records and data, I can 100% assure you we as a Regiments never wore a Bronze Cap Badge Officers design or OR's design. The bases of authenticating regimental insignia contained within the various dress regulations and descriptions of the said item with examples held in the sealed pattern for those who were authorised to manufacture such items, are the bed rock of Regimental Badges and Insignia. You have to look no further for a reliable example of Dress Regulations than the 1900 Officers Dress Regulations which is one of the best because it includes photographs of clothing and badges alike, with instructions to Officers to use reparable authorised regimental tailors when ordering items ensuring that they turn up at there regiment with authentic approved items as per the dress regulations.

There is no question about this, we were never authorised or other wise wore a bronze cap badge. However, the King's Own Borderers officers did wear Bronze Collar badges, (as did most of the Scottish Regiments) these were first introduced in 1881, (prior to this officers rank was worn on the collar) Officers, RSM and Band Master of the King's Own Scottish Borderers continued to wear bronze collar badges on their service dress. Illustrated on page 107 of my book) is the 1904 the example of the sealed pattern officers bronze collar badge, which stood the test of time and remained unaltered in design and material for a 102 years until 2006, unique to the British Army when it comes to uniform insignia.

Warm wishes
Hiram
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For Gold the merchant ploughs the main,The Farmer ploughs the Manor;But Glory is the Sodger's prize,The sodger's wealth is honor:The brave poor SODGER ne'er dispise,
Nor count him as a stranger; Remember he's his Country's stay,In day and hour of Danger.

Last edited by Borderer; 27-11-22 at 03:50 PM.
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