Pagri badges

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

So in essence what the ACD said "would be worn" and what the regimental "tribes" took into wear are two different things, which requires study in greater detail.

Graham

I concur; it will be interesting to see if any formal direction comes to light that provides the reason for the apparent abandonment of the HPC with shank in the FSH in favor of the cloth and forage cap badges that gained widespread use.

As an aside I did come across a record in vol 12 outlining the background to the red cloth in the pagri for the N.F. and the approval to continue wearing it. It is a full page entry if you would like further details PM me.

John

[KLR]

They authorised them, they ordered them (I've seen WO tenders), and they were physically produced.
An expensive mistake !
Yes, John it would be interesting to find evidence for their non appearance, maybe the WO did not want to broadcast this one !?

[Charlie585]

--

[Graham Stewart]

Gollop.jpg

John & KLR - thanks for your patience on this one and sorry to such a pain in the butt over it. It's just when you collect regimently and have over a 1,000 photographs in your collection to your regiment spanning the best part of service it's life and you see these ACD statements, then you have to question them, if you know full well that the regiment you're concerned with didn't comply.

It would be great to see a compiled regimental list and possibly photographs along with ACD's of what exactly was worn regimently with both the white & khaki FSH's.

Attached is a photo of the kit layout of 1761 Bandsman, J.Gollop, 2nd Bn, NF taken shortly after the Battalion arrived in India in 1913. Gollop was a native of South Shields, Durham and went onto win the M.M. 16/7/1918. You may just make out both of his FSH's at the top of his bed, both with the red pagri 'V' on the helmet.

[Malcolm Davey]

Hi Chaps
Interesting thread this, i wonder if anyone can shed some light on this Scots Guards badge i have had it a while but can find no reference to it as its bronzed, it has a green enamel centre which has a spider web pattern and wondered if it was worn on the FSH.
All the best
Malc

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Graham

I concur; it will be interesting to see if any formal direction comes to light that provides the reason for the apparent abandonment of the HPC with shank in the FSH in favor of the cloth and forage cap badges that gained widespread use.

As an aside I did come across a record in vol 12 outlining the background to the red cloth in the pagri for the N.F. and the approval to continue wearing it. It is a full page entry if you would like further details PM me.

John

John,
this looks very much like a NF Pagri?

Andy

[cbuehler]

That is a very unusual slider and reinforcement on that NF badge of Andy's. I doubt however, that it is was intended as a Pagri badge.

CB

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by cbuehler

That is a very unusual slider and reinforcement on that NF badge of Andy's. I doubt however, that it is was intended as a Pagri badge.

CB

I see no reason to doubt it as a pagri badge, but Graham will know more than us what the practices of The Northumberland Fusiliers were.

[KLR]

I was specifically writing about the HPCs made into badges for the 'slouch' hat - which had special sockets to hold them fast.
There is a WO tender for these dated november 1903 but for only 21 infantry regiments. It is possible, of course, that there was an earlier tender as November was nearly a year after the authorisation for these things.
Anyway Graham - the NF are not on that list !
John - the Leinsters are on it.
as is the KLR (I saw one on buywyze once but I was too late !)

[Alan O]

I would be grateful for a copy of the list if that would be possible.

Thanks

Alan

[ncc]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

John,
this looks very much like a NF Pagri?

Andy

this is one of the two badges in kk as post 1881 glengarry badges.
if converted to slider for a pagri badge the reinforcement is probably the only way you could do it and not have the badge snap at the base of the grenade flame or it could be that the first was the glengarry and the second was made as a pagri .kk have made the same error for other regiments.
the one in the pic has not had a slider fitted and i have also seen others that have the reinforcement and no slider,so very possibly a badge that did not make it into general wear.
Bob

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by KLR

I was specifically writing about the HPCs made into badges for the 'slouch' hat - which had special sockets to hold them fast.
There is a WO tender for these dated november 1903 but for only 21 infantry regiments. It is possible, of course, that there was an earlier tender as November was nearly a year after the authorisation for these things.
Anyway Graham - the NF are not on that list !
John - the Leinsters are on it.
as is the KLR (I saw one on buywyze once but I was too late !)

Julian, if I may ask please are the Munster Fusiliers or Dublin Fusiliers on the list?

John

[KLR]

No John, Leinster is the only Irish regt there. In fact there are no fusilier regt badges there - on the list of 'converted' HPCs - which leads me to think that grenade badges were a separate thing. I'm not really qualified to say anything about them but I think that DL found something on them - I'll check my notes.
cheers, J - did you get the 'photo !?

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

John,
this looks very much like a NF Pagri?

Andy

Except that in all my time collecting to the NF, I've only ever seen them worn with the Glengarry. Apart from owning over 1,000 photo's of the regiment I also own nearly a full run of regimental journals from 1883-1968. Within those journals are a serious load of period photo's and this badge nevers appears worn with either a white or khaki FSH.

Am writing this from Heathrow at the moment.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by KLR

No John, Leinster is the only Irish regt there. In fact there are no fusilier regt badges there - on the list of 'converted' HPCs - which leads me to think that grenade badges were a separate thing. I'm not really qualified to say anything about them but I think that DL found something on them - I'll check my notes.
cheers, J - did you get the 'photo !?

Sorry Julian, only just coming back to this, yes I got the photo thank you. With regard to Fusilier Grenade badges for the slouch hat. From WO359/12 p 120

For Infantry regiments the helmet plate centre was to be used where helmet plate centres existed , In other cases the Glengarry badge or existing full dress badge. For cavalry the FSC badge was to be used and all were to be fitted with a vertical shank.

Fusiliers not having a HPC fell into the glengarry badge/other existing full dressbadge category and as I think I mentioned a few months later S&W are submitting glengarry (specifically called out as Glengarry) grenades with sliders fitted to the W/O for approval. I should be ready to pass these files over to you shortly. I now believe my Dubs badge (in the next post) is a slouch hat badge probably by Smith & Wright which was also sealed for the FSH with pith band (as the entry notes). Whether it was ever worn on the FSH in practice is quite another matter.



John