British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Headdress

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14-10-16, 08:41 AM
dak580 dak580 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 142
Default Birmingham Pals

G'day Guys

Here are a few pictures of my Birmingham Pals cap.

I say Pals because of the cap badge which displays all the right signs and as never been removed from the cap.

As can be seen it has orange piping which is correct for The Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

Also I pick it up around 35 years ago in Aston so exactly the right area of the UK.

John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF1717.jpg (48.2 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1718.jpg (49.3 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1719.jpg (36.7 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1720.jpg (34.1 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg KK594 (Pals).jpg (84.7 KB, 103 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 14-10-16, 09:27 AM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 7,572
Default

John,

The Birmingham Pals have their own different cap badge.
See attached.

regards
Attached Images
File Type: jpg KitchenersBirminghamWeb.jpg (90.1 KB, 131 views)
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 14-10-16, 11:29 AM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,730
Default

Great side cap. A couple of points to add:

-The pals wore the double scrolled badge on their peaked caps - but this was by no means universal and some were the single scrolled badge.

-There are a number of photos of them in side caps with a single scrolled badge when they were in UK late 14/early 15. The only photos of side caps show a single scroll badge and not the double scrolled version which was solely worn on the khaki and dark blue peaked ones. Photos of the Pals with single scroll badges are in here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Birmingham-.../dp/1848844220

-I have suspected that the Pals side cap badge may have been a regimentally procured badge and not the standard issue one so a lugged all brass one is a possibility. The chain however looks to be officer type.

- Some good photos of the 3rd Bn here in winter 1914. Some are wearing the dark blue peaked caps whilst others have side caps. http://www.moseleians.co.uk/birmingham-pals/#

-I can't be certain that your hat definitely is Pals; but it warrants further investigation. I would actually prefer it if the piping was not there as the 1915 'postmans blues' uniforms did not have such regtl distinctions and it may be a regtl hat.

Thanks for showing.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 14-10-16 at 12:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 14-10-16, 02:38 PM
Phillip Herring's Avatar
Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,416
Default

Looks to me that it is a legit Royal Warwicks OR's coloured field service cap with an Officers' Service Dress collar badge.

Phil
__________________
Courtesy of The Canadian Forces:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-.../lineages.html

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14-10-16, 03:51 PM
JerryBB's Avatar
JerryBB JerryBB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wales
Posts: 5,025
Default

Unless I am mistaken the Pals would be WWI and this cap would be post 1937 when the Coloured FS cap was re introduced to the British Army.#


It looks to be a fine unmessed with example, always good to see them with their original badge still in place.
__________________
Regards,

Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19-10-16, 05:21 PM
dak580 dak580 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 142
Default

Many thanks for all your reply's.

Like I say and Alan points out the only reason I think it's Pals is the badge.

Is it an officers example because of the construction, could this explain the piping and the badge? I don't know.

If it is a 1930's construction why use a WW1 badge?

I honestly have no idea or facts that prove it one way or the other.

I did email the Royal Warwickshire museum and ask them if they could shed any light on the cap and badge and got a very nice reply saying they will investigate but that's been 12 months ago and I have heard nothing further.

Once again many thanks and if you are able to find any information in the future please share.

John
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 19-10-16, 05:28 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 7,572
Default

John,

Whose to say the badge and cap started out life together? I dont believe they did.

The badge isnt a WW1 'Pals' cap badge its a collar badge and the cap isnt WW1 its much later.

In short someone has just stuck whatever badge they had to hand on the cap.

This could be for numerous reasons, some innocent and some to deceive, either way its NOT a WW1 Birmingham Pals cap and badge.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20-10-16, 09:03 AM
Staffsyeoman Staffsyeoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,129
Default

The construction of that Royal Warwicks officers' collar (the separate chain; the typeface of the lettering, the robust antelope) make me more inclined to think it is a WW2 era badge - it is the same construction as my late father's except his was darker bronzing. So I'm afraid the most likely solution is a WW2 officers' badge placed on a 1930s Other Ranks coloured side cap.

I may be wrong, but if I remember correctly the side hats issued to the Birmingham Battalions when in the 1914 blue uniforms did not have orange piping.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22-10-16, 08:05 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,730
Default

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-W...kAAOSwzaJYBg43

Another officers side cap with the same collar badge used. The one shown in the first post appears to be a cheap cap compared to the usual officers tailored ones but the badge is thus probably original.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 29-11-16, 06:00 PM
jesb jesb is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1
Default Birmingham Pals

Sorry to nit-pick, but the piping on the Royal Warwickshire Regiment side cap is not orange, but gold.

My great uncle, Pte 705 Alfred James Steadman, was in C Coy 16th RWR, 3rd City of Birmingham Battalion, from October 1914 until missing in action on 9th October 1917. I have three photographs of him taken late 1914 and between April and June 1915, and all show him with a RWR, not Birmingham Pals, cap badge. Other men with him wear a Pals badge. I have no explanation for this.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-12-16, 06:32 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,730
Default

Photo's of the battalions in UK show the pals badge in peaked caps but some soldiers also wore the single scroll badge alongside others with pals badges.The blue side caps are only pictured with the standard badge.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-12-16, 07:13 PM
tonyb's Avatar
tonyb tonyb is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Huytonshire
Posts: 3,266
Default

Begs the question were these single scroll badges worn by the Pals, the hairy beast one from this previous thread, I assumed they were surplus stock issued to non Pals!
Tony.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ighlight=Hairy
__________________
For Christopher night night son.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:18 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.