Unknown British shoulder belt plate? Order?

[vigilans]

Thanks for your replies.
What is confusing for me, is that any Bath order or star, I have seen is enamelled, does anyone think this is insignia rather than an order of some type?
Thanks
Vigilans

[Peter Brydon]

Vigilans,

I have to say that I dont know but I think that Nelson had copies of his orders made for everyday wear on his uniforms and I am begining to wonder if your badge might be a copy.

You could send an E mail with a picture to one of the Medal Dealers like DNW or Morten and Eden for their opinion.

Peter

[vigilans]

Hello all
I did as 8th Foot suggested and contacted both DNW and Morten and Eden for their thoughts on this badge I have had a reply from DNW as follows:

"Thank you for your recent e-mail concerning the insignia you illustrate.
Although superficially resembling the star of the Order of the Bath,
our militaria specialist believes it to be part of a Senior N.C.O's.
shoulder belt plate of the 57th (West Middlesex) Regiment c.1840-55"
We hope this of some help.
Yours sincerely
Brian Simpkin

Does anyone have any thoughts as to their 'specialists' opinion?
Does anyone have a book on Shoulder Belt Plates?
to me it does not resemble any badge that the Middlesex Regt wore at any time in their history. Where the Middlesex link came from is beyond me?
Any help greatly appreciated
Thanks

[CftD]

Parkyn describes the very plate in his book Shoulder Belt Plates and Buttons. The opinion from DNW would have been given by Dixon Pickup whose authority on SBPs is second to none. The lugs on the reverse must, therefore, have been added subsequent to it being removed from the original SBP backplate. David

[vigilans]

Originally Posted by Counsel for the Defence

Parkyn describes the very plate in his book Shoulder Belt Plates and Buttons. The opinion from DNW would have been given by Dixon Pickup whose authority on SBPs is second to none. The lugs on the reverse must, therefore, have been added subsequet to it being removed from the original SBP backplate. David

Thanks David
If its not too much trouble can you copy the Parkyn description or scan it for me? Is there a photo?

[CftD]

Parkyn : "Prior to 1855 the officers' plate was a gilt burnished one with a silver diamond cut star of the Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath complete, with crown above the cross which was in gilt; the motto of the Order was in gilt letters on a crimson enamel girdle of silver, with three gilt crowns on a white enamel centre. Below the cross, resting on the rays of the star, was a silver label with the number '57'. The rays of the cross are inscribed 'Albuhera', 'Nivelle'. 'Nive', 'Vittoria', 'Pyrenees' and 'Peninsula' "
Parkyn obviously describes the officers' pattern which was copied, in a less elaborate form, for senior nco's. There is no illustration of the plate in the book. Hope this helps. David

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Counsel for the Defence

Parkyn describes the very plate in his book Shoulder Belt Plates and Buttons. The opinion from DNW would have been given by Dixon Pickup whose authority on SBPs is second to none. The lugs on the reverse must, therefore, have been added subsequent to it being removed from the original SBP backplate. David

Hi Vigilans, me again !
While I would normally hesitate to dispute the views of DNW, or indeed Dixon Pickup for the very good reasons given by CFTD, I do feel that they are in error on this occasion :
Some years ago I made a detailed study of the SBPs and Shako Plates of the 57th Foot and it would appear that the design of the Bath Star on their badges began shortly after the appointment to the GCB of the Colonel of the regiment Sir Frederick Adam on the 4th Dec 1835.
There were several "variations on a theme" with regard to the detail of such devices/attachments, but to my knowledge all incorporated the 57th battle honours on the arms of the cross, viz ;
ALBUHERA, NIVELLE-NIVE, VITTORIA-PYRENEES, PENINSULA (see attachments..B&W only I'm afraid).
In some cases the crown above the cross was omitted, and also the fretting and enamelling in the centre varied. There was also a small silver oval plate with the figs 57 below the lower arm. (no sign of it ever being on your piece ??)
In my opinion, if the lugs on your device are not original (tho' I think they may well be) and the GCB design is indeed from an SBP, then it is much more likely to be a 95th Foot plate. (see Parkyn description & illustration attached).
Here you will observe, there is no crown or battle honours on the cross and is much more like your device.
Anyway, whatever your final verdict on this, you have a very interesting and rare piece. Regards & congratulations. Jeff

57F Offs SBP (3).jpg 57F Offs SBP (4).jpg

57F Offs SBP (5).jpg 57F Offs SBP (6).jpg

95F Offs SBP Bath Star.jpg Parkyn 95F p226.jpg

[vigilans]

Thankyou both David and Jeff for the information. I will keep you posted on what else I can find out.
By the way I am sure the lugs are original to the badge, no sign whatsoever that any other fixing device has been removed. Perhaps not a shoulder belt plate at all???
Thanks
Geoff

[CftD]

Hello again - If, indeed, the lugs are original to the plate then it is most certainly NOT the device from a shoulder belt plate. I believe that brings us back to my original comment that it may originally have been intended for mounting on a softer back material - a colour sash, for example. I have also noticed something else which I believe to be relevant - the shoulder belt plate devices (57th and 95th) had elongated sunrays behind the maltese cross as the sbp itself was elongated. I believe your plate is about the same dimenson east to west as it is north to south. That would also move us away from it being a sbp device. Just my view, of course. David

[vigilans]

Originally Posted by Counsel for the Defence

Hello again - If, indeed, the lugs are original to the plate then it is most certainly NOT the device from a shoulder belt plate. I believe that brings us back to my original comment that it may originally have been intended for mounting on a softer back material - a colour sash, for example. I have also noticed something else which I believe to be relevant - the shoulder belt plate devices (57th and 95th) had elongated sunrays behind the maltese cross as the sbp itself was elongated. I believe your plate is about the same dimenson east to west as it is north to south. That would also move us away from it being a sbp device. Just my view, of course. David

David it measures about 84 mm x 73 mm

[wright241]

Originally Posted by vigilans

I have had this for many years never knowing what it is....any ideas (and if possible, value, as I will be moving this on) would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Vigilans

Somewhere.. I have a cap badge (I recall that it has a KC) thats looks exactly the same - with regard to the cross etc. Will try and locate it and send pics, measurements etc.